📓 Journals Adding Lightness

[Eagle7]

I appreciate that you believe there's some sort of learning going on over time. I'm not totally sure how that would work with the fact that people go in and get tunes on the dyno, and the idea is that they are leaving with a map that is fully functional. Maybe there are some tiny things still getting adjusted, but I believe them to be at the margins.

If you have the chance to go back, I would highly recommend starting with map 1 and doing back to back switching to map 0. I think that would be a much more valid experiment.

There's a difference between someone getting a dyno tune map done for their car while it's live on the dyno, and downloading a pre-built map into your ECU that hasn't been sitting on the dyno getting adjusted live. If you watched the video with mr.suntorytime's car being tuned, I believe it was a 2 day event, with Kyle (I think that was his name) making adjustments live, thinking about things over night, and making more adjustments the next day. He was making adjustments to the adjustments the ECU was making as he was making adjustments.

I appreciate you wanting a live Map 0/Map 1 comparison, but I'm not sure how much lingering effect the ECU would have to having been adjusting to Map 1 for 100 miles, and suddenly it's removed. I'm not going to be using Map 0 for any reason unless there was a fault code or some kind of issue (there hasn't been), or perhaps an emissions test requirement years in the future.

The dyno shop is only charging me a single flat fee for a dyno run, not a tune session which is an hourly charge and would cost a lot more. I just wanted a snapshot of what my car is doing now, versus what it was doing the last time I was there. My initial impression the first time I used Map 1 the day I got it installed was that there was more torque, and that's what the dyno chart shows. There was at least that much instant change.

I can tell you that over the last week, I've started noticing a steady and continuing change in the exhaust tone each time I drive the car, so something is slowly changing over time. A few nights ago I thought the tone was slightly different, but yesterday on the way to and back from the dyno shop, I really noticed there's now a very distinct change. It sounds more like a growl now, which it never did before. It's been a boomy roar ever since I installed the @Aerie Ti muffler. It didn't growl the first time I switched to Map 1, so this is a new development (it's great by the way).

What I think this shows, since my car has and has always had the 3rd cat in place, is that the factory exhaust is quite restrictive which holds back performance. It looks like based on mrsuntorytime's chart versus mine, that there is a performance gain at the upper rpms without the 3rd cat. Every run on my car, from stock onwards, shows basically the same performance once you reach about 4,800 rpm no matter what I've done to the car. I'm now thinking of getting a 3rd cat delete as an experiment to see if I can feel any different above 4,800. I never deleted it because I don't want the car louder, but if it's not too much, it may be worth living with.

What this car really needs is a true dual exhaust system, and after studying it, I think it may be possible now that Burger can adjust the tune. I'm sure @Aerie could and would be able to do it (not sure what the cost would be), I just wish they weren't so slow at responding and getting things done. It takes months just to get a set of wheels. I can't imagine how long it would take to get a custom, never-before-built dual exhaust system.

Thank you for looking at my thread though, and commenting. I appreciate your interest!

 

[sbproducer]

Man, this is a great thread. Much appreciated! Read all 21 pages in one sitting.

 

[sbproducer]

I would like to add that I've been preaching about the Eventuri intake.. It really is great and I noticed a difference immediately. I actually got the GRP third cat delete and run stock valve controller. I drive exclusively in track mode and the car is not loud at all at low rpm in my opinion. It sounds amazing above 5000 rpm and does get a little loud.

I got the intake and cat delete installed at the same time so can't really make a comparison there.

 

[Tomwa]

I just don't think there is anything that supports the idea that the ECU is "learning" and changing its parameters over time. This seems like a 'voodoo' statement.

The change in your exhaust is not related to something the ECU is doing outside of some differences between cold-start/warm up and full operating conditions. Any other change in tone is more reasonably prescribed to changes in weather or some sort of change to the Ti itself as it settles into its heat-cycling.

There is no reason to "Fear" or be somehow concerned that there will be an adverse affect of moving to Map 0. This is literally a straight pass-through of the sensor data with no changing of the MAP information being passed to the ECU.

Claims that the ECU is learning to ignore data from sensors because it is not aligning to other data from other sensors. Specifically the case would have to be made that it is going to ignore Intake data (MAF/IAT/MAP) in favor of good exhaust data coming from the o2 Sensors which are likely narrowband and not really that robust. This would be extremely odd behavior and very dangerous for an ECU, to effectively 'ignore' or treat as 'bad' data coming from any of the inputs.

Even if that is the 'claim' that the engine control has learned to do this. What is the risk of dropping back into Map 0? that it will... what get now a "reliable" signal from the sensors it is otherwise self modifying/ignoring? If the engine is 'capable' of running with partial sensor data and relying on the o2 sensors, that doesn't change if you un-modify the signals on intake side.

 

[RyanGphoto]

Let us know if you talk to Aerie about the dual exhaust. I'd love to hear more.

 

[Eagle7]

I just don't think there is anything that supports the idea that the ECU is "learning" and changing its parameters over time. This seems like a 'voodoo' statement.

The change in your exhaust is not related to something the ECU is doing outside of some differences between cold-start/warm up and full operating conditions. Any other change in tone is more reasonably prescribed to changes in weather or some sort of change to the Ti itself as it settles into its heat-cycling.

There is no reason to "Fear" or be somehow concerned that there will be an adverse affect of moving to Map 0. This is literally a straight pass-through of the sensor data with no changing of the MAP information being passed to the ECU.

Claims that the ECU is learning to ignore data from sensors because it is not aligning to other data from other sensors. Specifically the case would have to be made that it is going to ignore Intake data (MAF/IAT/MAP) in favor of good exhaust data coming from the o2 Sensors which are likely narrowband and not really that robust. This would be extremely odd behavior and very dangerous for an ECU, to effectively 'ignore' or treat as 'bad' data coming from any of the inputs.

Even if that is the 'claim' that the engine control has learned to do this. What is the risk of dropping back into Map 0? that it will... what get now a "reliable" signal from the sensors it is otherwise self modifying/ignoring? If the engine is 'capable' of running with partial sensor data and relying on the o2 sensors, that doesn't change if you un-modify the signals on intake side.

Did you see the dyno chart from the intake shootout that @GRP did? It shows hardly any gain, and all 4 aftermarket intakes within 3 hp of each other, which is almost the margin of error for a dynojet. For his test they put their car on the dyno and did a baseline pull, then switched from intake to intake to intake one right after the other, doing a dyno pull for each one. All of this within hours the same day. There was literally no time for the ECU to adjust to the changes, and as you can see, there hardly were any.

Compare that to my Eventuri chart from July 10 last year, which shows an increase of 16.5 hp and 15 ft lbs over stock, and that was done after I'd put about 100 miles on the car after installing the Eventuri. I've done several additional dyno runs for various things since then, and every one of them shows the same lift in performance from the Eventuri, so it wasn't a fluke. So why are the results from GRP's test so different? The only thing that's different is there was no time for the ECU to adjust for his tests, while there was time for it to adjust on mine. That's sufficient evidence for me that the ECU does learn and makes engine performance adjustments over time. I think the fact that connecting the JB4 into the OBD port so it can read and coordinate what it's doing with what the ECU is doing is one of the reasons why it works so well. These new cars with all their computerized systems are something else.

As anyone knows, over time you get used to the sounds your car makes and when something sounds different, you notice. Over the last 3,000 miles I've gotten to know my car. In the last 2 weeks, the exhaust tone and characteristic has changed, enough so that I've noticed. The only physical thing that's changed is I've been running on Map 1 with the JB4. It's even been the same tank of gas. I filled up at a Shell station the day I installed the JB4 and started using Map 1 for the first time, and haven't filled up since then. At that time what I noticed when switching to Map 1 was the increase in torque, but not a big change in hp or the exhaust sound. The exhaust change has been happening progressively, but it's really only been in the last few days that it's been especially noticeable. About a week ago I kinda sorta thought it might be sounding different, but dismissed it as just me wanting it to. However by Monday when I was driving to the dyno shop, there was no question it had changed. This is in Sport Mode.

I don't know how you got that I "feared" switching to Map 0. I don't. I'm just not using it. I already know what the performance is without the JB4 tune being used, since that's how the car's been ever since I got it. I was paying to see what the new results were, not the old one. The first pull is the best; after that, heat soak starts to affect additional pulls and the numbers start going down.

Based on my experience and what I've seen, the Emira ECU is adaptive and biased towards the side of caution, constantly analyzing and adapting over time. I don't see this as being dangerous; quite the opposite. I see this as a deliberate characteristic to protect the engine from sudden dramatic changes, which I'm okay with.

The one thing I've noticed and realized, is that with every dyno run I've done since installing the Eventuri, every chart shows the same thing happening once the rpms reach about 4,800. All the chart lines clamp together the rest of the way to redline, regardless of whatever change was made. I'm guessing the restrictions of the exhaust system just won't allow any more upper rpm performance. I still have the 3rd cat installed (never deleted it) so I've now ordered a titanium 3rd cat delete from @Aerie (they're on sale right now; hopefully it won't take months to get) so I can see how much difference it makes. I know from installing their cat-back titanium muffler, that there was a slight increase in torque at lower rpms, so I'm hoping the delete pipe will open more of that up.

 

[RyanGphoto]

Did you see the dyno chart from the intake shootout that @GRP did? It shows hardly any gain, and all 4 aftermarket intakes within 3 hp of each other, which is almost the margin of error for a dynojet. For his test they put their car on the dyno and did a baseline pull, then switched from intake to intake to intake one right after the other, doing a dyno pull for each one. All of this within hours the same day. There was literally no time for the ECU to adjust to the changes, and as you can see, there hardly were any.

View attachment 68760

Compare that to my Eventuri chart from July 10 last year, which shows an increase of 16.5 hp and 15 ft lbs over stock, and that was done after I'd put about 100 miles on the car after installing the Eventuri. I've done several additional dyno runs for various things since then, and every one of them shows the same lift in performance from the Eventuri, so it wasn't a fluke. So why are the results from GRP's test so different? The only thing that's different is there was no time for the ECU to adjust for his tests, while there was time for it to adjust on mine. That's sufficient evidence for me that the ECU does learn and makes engine performance adjustments over time. I think the fact that connecting the JB4 into the OBD port so it can read and coordinate what it's doing with what the ECU is doing is one of the reasons why it works so well. These new cars with all their computerized systems are something else.

View attachment 68761

As anyone knows, over time you get used to the sounds your car makes and when something sounds different, you notice. Over the last 3,000 miles I've gotten to know my car. In the last 2 weeks, the exhaust tone and characteristic has changed, enough so that I've noticed. The only physical thing that's changed is I've been running on Map 1 with the JB4. It's even been the same tank of gas. I filled up at a Shell station the day I installed the JB4 and started using Map 1 for the first time, and haven't filled up since then. At that time what I noticed when switching to Map 1 was the increase in torque, but not a big change in hp or the exhaust sound. The exhaust change has been happening progressively, but it's really only been in the last few days that it's been especially noticeable. About a week ago I kinda sorta thought it might be sounding different, but dismissed it as just me wanting it to. However by Monday when I was driving to the dyno shop, there was no question it had changed. This is in Sport Mode.

I don't know how you got that I "feared" switching to Map 0. I don't. I'm just not using it. I already know what the performance is without the JB4 tune being used, since that's how the car's been ever since I got it. I was paying to see what the new results were, not the old one. The first pull is the best; after that, heat soak starts to affect additional pulls and the numbers start going down.

Based on my experience and what I've seen, the Emira ECU is adaptive and biased towards the side of caution, constantly analyzing and adapting over time. I don't see this as being dangerous; quite the opposite. I see this as a deliberate characteristic to protect the engine from sudden dramatic changes, which I'm okay with.

The one thing I've noticed and realized, is that with every dyno run I've done since installing the Eventuri, every chart shows the same thing happening once the rpms reach about 4,800. All the chart lines clamp together the rest of the way to redline, regardless of whatever change was made. I'm guessing the restrictions of the exhaust system just won't allow any more upper rpm performance. I still have the 3rd cat installed (never deleted it) so I've now ordered a titanium 3rd cat delete from @Aerie (they're on sale right now; hopefully it won't take months to get) so I can see how much difference it makes. I know from installing their cat-back titanium muffler, that there was a slight increase in torque at lower rpms, so I'm hoping the delete pipe will open more of that up.

I hope you get some more gains from the cat delete (plus the weight savings)..

Did you ever ask them if they can make a dual exhaust for you???

 

[sbproducer]

Did you see the dyno chart from the intake shootout that @GRP did? It shows hardly any gain, and all 4 aftermarket intakes within 3 hp of each other, which is almost the margin of error for a dynojet. For his test they put their car on the dyno and did a baseline pull, then switched from intake to intake to intake one right after the other, doing a dyno pull for each one. All of this within hours the same day. There was literally no time for the ECU to adjust to the changes, and as you can see, there hardly were any.

View attachment 68760

Compare that to my Eventuri chart from July 10 last year, which shows an increase of 16.5 hp and 15 ft lbs over stock, and that was done after I'd put about 100 miles on the car after installing the Eventuri. I've done several additional dyno runs for various things since then, and every one of them shows the same lift in performance from the Eventuri, so it wasn't a fluke. So why are the results from GRP's test so different? The only thing that's different is there was no time for the ECU to adjust for his tests, while there was time for it to adjust on mine. That's sufficient evidence for me that the ECU does learn and makes engine performance adjustments over time. I think the fact that connecting the JB4 into the OBD port so it can read and coordinate what it's doing with what the ECU is doing is one of the reasons why it works so well. These new cars with all their computerized systems are something else.

View attachment 68761

As anyone knows, over time you get used to the sounds your car makes and when something sounds different, you notice. Over the last 3,000 miles I've gotten to know my car. In the last 2 weeks, the exhaust tone and characteristic has changed, enough so that I've noticed. The only physical thing that's changed is I've been running on Map 1 with the JB4. It's even been the same tank of gas. I filled up at a Shell station the day I installed the JB4 and started using Map 1 for the first time, and haven't filled up since then. At that time what I noticed when switching to Map 1 was the increase in torque, but not a big change in hp or the exhaust sound. The exhaust change has been happening progressively, but it's really only been in the last few days that it's been especially noticeable. About a week ago I kinda sorta thought it might be sounding different, but dismissed it as just me wanting it to. However by Monday when I was driving to the dyno shop, there was no question it had changed. This is in Sport Mode.

I don't know how you got that I "feared" switching to Map 0. I don't. I'm just not using it. I already know what the performance is without the JB4 tune being used, since that's how the car's been ever since I got it. I was paying to see what the new results were, not the old one. The first pull is the best; after that, heat soak starts to affect additional pulls and the numbers start going down.

Based on my experience and what I've seen, the Emira ECU is adaptive and biased towards the side of caution, constantly analyzing and adapting over time. I don't see this as being dangerous; quite the opposite. I see this as a deliberate characteristic to protect the engine from sudden dramatic changes, which I'm okay with.

The one thing I've noticed and realized, is that with every dyno run I've done since installing the Eventuri, every chart shows the same thing happening once the rpms reach about 4,800. All the chart lines clamp together the rest of the way to redline, regardless of whatever change was made. I'm guessing the restrictions of the exhaust system just won't allow any more upper rpm performance. I still have the 3rd cat installed (never deleted it) so I've now ordered a titanium 3rd cat delete from @Aerie (they're on sale right now; hopefully it won't take months to get) so I can see how much difference it makes. I know from installing their cat-back titanium muffler, that there was a slight increase in torque at lower rpms, so I'm hoping the delete pipe will open more of that up.

Totally agree with all this right here.

However, I do have concerns with the JB4. First, let me say that I think the JB4 tune is awesome and quite genius in the way that it performs its function. It deserves praise and it definitely has a place and a future in the mod market.

But, the Lotus Emira specifically has weak spots that the JB4 itself simply cannot address, like weak spots within the drivetrain. Assuming the JB4 monitors and makes adjustments on the fly perfectly, it doesn't monitor every aspect and part of the drivetrain. It can only monitor and adjust what the system is designed to see. I think that long term use of the JB4 tune, especially the higher maps, will certainly bring about premature failure of certain parts and functions of the Emira, IF the weak spots are not addressed. Stock, the Lotus Emira is simply not designed to handle that kind of power long term. That's just a plain fact. Something will happen, whether its a pulley somewhere, a piston, or an axle or whatever.

I highly recommend you guys to proceed with caution.

 

[mr.suntorytime]

Totally agree with all this right here.

However, I do have concerns with the JB4. First, let me say that I think the JB4 tune is awesome and quite genius in the way that it performs its function. It deserves praise and it definitely has a place and a future in the mod market.

But, the Lotus Emira specifically has weak spots that the JB4 itself simply cannot address, like weak spots within the drivetrain. Assuming the JB4 monitors and makes adjustments on the fly perfectly, it doesn't monitor every aspect and part of the drivetrain. It can only monitor and adjust what the system is designed to see. I think that long term use of the JB4 tune, especially the higher maps, will certainly bring about premature failure of certain parts and functions of the Emira, IF the weak spots are not addressed. Stock, the Lotus Emira is simply not designed to handle that kind of power long term. That's just a plain fact. Something will happen, whether its a pulley somewhere, a piston, or an axle or whatever.

I highly recommend you guys to proceed with caution.

just dont launch the car.
the extra power isnt what is the issue its the defective axles that were supplied in alot of emira v6 mt

 

[Eagle7]

I hope you get some more gains from the cat delete (plus the weight savings)..

Did you ever ask them if they can make a dual exhaust for you???

No, not yet, however I was pleasantly surprised to get a shipping notice that they've already shipped the ti cat delete pipe!

I've figured out a piping layout that would work, but I'm working on how to arrange 2 sports cats, 2 mufflers, and come up with a mounting loom that will work with the stock muffler mounts on the frame. Oh, and also 2 valves that can connect together and be opened and closed by the stock system when switching between modes. Once I get the details worked out, I'll send them the diagram and see if it's something they can do. I think they can, but I don't know what they'd charge.

 

[seriously]

Anecdotal feedback from the evora tuners is that the engine can handle additional hp long term, at least up to 460. The weak points noted are the clutch past 500 and the axels on a hard launch. I’m not too worried running map2. I probably wouldn’t run that on a hot track day due to additional heat soak concerns which it seems can happen to stock setups.

 

[Tracked Emira]

Anecdotal feedback from the evora tuners is that the engine can handle additional hp long term, at least up to 460. The weak points noted are the clutch past 500 and the axels on a hard launch. I’m not too worried running map2. I probably wouldn’t run that on a hot track day due to additional heat soak concerns which it seems can happen to stock setups.

This my concern. After getting to around 460 I will be happy, but I am concerned about heat issues causing the car to go into limp mode, Obviously it is an issue with the car, otherwiswe Lotus wouldn't have recently redone and upgraded the cooling lines and system because they know now that there are issues for cars that are driven hard.
Better intercoolers will help and I'm waiting to see what a couple of you think once completed with your projects.
Has anyone repeated multiple dyno pulls to see how much horsepower decreased or not? And after intercooler install we need to see if the horse power numbers become more stable. Does Snow performance show before and after dyno pull graphs to show any improvements? The results on dyno graphs with my NSX forums show a 50 horse power loss after a few pulls on the dyno with a 700 horse power tune. So do we lose around 20 ourselves??? After they replaced both intercoolers that issue was solved and horse power was more constant, but that's still not 10 hard lap runs in very hot weather, but better than stock intercoolers.
My next step is to upgrade to JUBU's cooling kit. Has anyone done this upgrade?
I hope after my O2 sensor is changed that launch control will work again, as well as, the car not going into limp mode after 6 to 7 hot tracj day laps every session.
I have Milltek V2 w/ valves always open, 3rd cat delete, eventuri intake & full titanium exhaust.
Has anyone gone into limp mode on track days with outside temperatures being 90 degrees and above?

 

[sbproducer]

Anecdotal feedback from the evora tuners is that the engine can handle additional hp long term, at least up to 460. The weak points noted are the clutch past 500 and the axels on a hard launch. I’m not too worried running map2. I probably wouldn’t run that on a hot track day due to additional heat soak concerns which it seems can happen to stock setups.

Well, good luck with it guys. I suppose things could work out long term on Map 2 I just think you're taking a big risk. I certainly wouldn't put my money on it. I'm personally going with the JUBU 460 along with some of their other upgrades to round things out. They are currently on vacation till the 18th. I'm personally really excited about their Short Final Drive. I think it's a game changer for the Emira.