Toyota 2GR-FE engine vs. BMW B58 (Supra) engine

[wallstbear]

It's all really weird. Toyota is using BMW's engine on its new Supra, Lotus is using Merc and Toyota engines on its new Emira…

Some say gas cars are having a big orgy now that EVs are taking over anyway.

But the question remains, which is the better engine, the Toyota 2GR engine and BMW B58?

 

[FederGigant]

BMW Engine in every single aspect except the sound. To be fair, the BMW engine Ist 10-15 years newer.

 

[wallstbear]

BMW Engine in every single aspect except the sound. To be fair, the BMW engine Ist 10-15 years newer.

Which begs the question why is Emira using a 15 year old engine.

 

[donskibeat]

Because it is the engine they know well and have worked with in previous cars I suspect, so perfectly mated to the Lotus models

 

[Matthaus]

The b58 is brilliant, I've owned one previously.

 

[VL3X]

Which begs the question why is Emira using a 15 year old engine.

Because it's cheap for them. Lotus doesn't even build the 2GR. They literally slap on the Edlebrock blower kit with larger injectors and a tune and call it a day. Oh, and they grab a Rav 4 trans for the 6 speeds. It is a bit disappointing, but it's a reliable engine and it makes decent power.

Apparently they don't use the newer direct injection Toyota v6 because it doesn't fit in a mid engine layout.

 

[CanadianEmira]

Because it's cheap for them. Lotus doesn't even build the 2GR. They literally slap on the Edlebrock blower kit with larger injectors and a tune and call it a day. Oh, and they grab a Rav 4 trans for the 6 speeds. It is a bit disappointing, but it's a reliable engine and it makes decent power.

Apparently they don't use the newer direct injection Toyota v6 because it doesn't fit in a mid engine layout.

For the 6 speed auto only, no? Or both?

 

[FederGigant]

The 2GR is a great engine nevertheless. Very reliable, great sound, very linear power output and still a decent weight. I think it‘s a perfect fit for the Emira, and the power output will be perfect for having the most fun possible no matter whether you are driving on track or on the road.

 

[donskibeat]

They literally slap on the Edlebrock blower kit with larger injectors and a tune and call it a day.

I think they do quite a bit more than that according to what Scott Walker explained at Hethel event!

 

[VL3X]

I think they do quite a bit more than that according to what Scott Walker explained at Hethel event!

Well, sure.. They make it work for a mid engine layout by fabbing a custom intake and exhaust, but the actual engine is untouched besides the blower and charge cooler bolted to the top and larger fuel injectors. Lotus doesn't touch the internals at all. Same pistons, same cams, etc.

I'm not even convinced they really regear the transmission at all. Some say the final gear ratio is slightly adjusted and others claim the gears are simply cryo treated to be a little stronger and that's it.

 

[donskibeat]

Scott Walker said it is taken apart and completely rebuilt etc - suspect someone like @TomE may know more....

 

[VL3X]

Scott Walker said it is taken apart and completely rebuilt etc - suspect someone like @TomE may know more....

Nope. Unless Lotus found a way to actually make less power than the outgoing Evora GT by building the motor this time.

 

[Pegasi]

I am not familiar with the B58 engine but one plus for me on the Emira was the 2GR engine. Everything has to be evaluated through the lens of continuous threat that this is the last ICE. If this is the last ICE for Lotus then I am glad I have one that will last 20 years and I will be able to find parts.

 

[TomE]

The 2GR comes in a crate from Toyota, Lotus add the SC/CC, intake, exhaust and ECU. The gearboxes I think now come with the Lotus spec already done. The engine internals aren't touched. Then there's the Lotus adaptor plate and Toyota clutch assembly. Flywheel I think is separately sourced on cars since the 400.

 

[VL3X]

The 2GR comes in a crate from Toyota, Lotus add the SC/CC, intake, exhaust and ECU. The gearboxes I think now come with the Lotus spec already done. The engine internals aren't touched. Then there's the Lotus adaptor plate and Toyota clutch assembly. Flywheel I think is separately sourced on cars since the 400.

Thanks for confirming Tom. Any insight as to why Lotus hasn't increased the power to match competitors these last ~12 years... or at least build the gearbox a little stronger to handle more power? Or found a way to squeeze in the direct injected 2GR? Or actually builds the 2GR with forged internals and a more powerful blower?

I realize Lotus likes to focus on handling and driveability, but most Evora GT owners admit they'd like more straight line power. I'm sure Lotus would have sold many more Evoras if there was a bigger aftermarket. There's just so little potential with the current setup and locked ECU.. owners spend ~$20k just to gain ~70 crank HP (to compare, I spent $600 on a simple re-flash to gain 100WHP in my GTI). Why build a beautiful new model and offer it with even less power than the vehicle it's replacing?

*I know the turbo AMG engine has loads of potential, but that's irrelevant to those of us who want a manual transmission.

 

[Nova]

Or found a way to squeeze in the direct injected 2GR?

The 2GR-FSE is designed for longitudinal orientation. It won't fit in the engine bay.

 

[TomE]

Thanks for confirming Tom. Any insight as to why Lotus hasn't increased the power to match competitors these last ~12 years... or at least build the gearbox a little stronger to handle more power? Or found a way to squeeze in the direct injected 2GR? Or actually builds the 2GR with forged internals and a more powerful blower?

I realize Lotus likes to focus on handling and driveability, but most Evora GT owners admit they'd like more straight line power. I'm sure Lotus would have sold many more Evoras if there was a bigger aftermarket. There's just so little potential with the current setup and locked ECU.. owners spend ~$20k just to gain ~70 crank HP (to compare, I spent $600 on a simple re-flash to gain 100WHP in my GTI). Why build a beautiful new model and offer it with even less power than the vehicle it's replacing?

*I know the turbo AMG engine has loads of potential, but that's irrelevant to those of us who want a manual transmission.

It comes down to cost and warranty. I'm not that knowledgeable on engine tuning on the V6 - I blew up my Elan engine through over-modifying and have stuck to stock on my cars since then!

I know Cosworth built a modified NA V6 for the Evora for GT4 racing, enlarged to 4.0L and with a sequential gearbox, but as a race engine it needed frequent maintenance. I gather the issues in the Evora have included the ability of the gearbox to take the extra torque and engine bay temperatures affecting other components and heat-soaking the supercharger. The Evora 410 Sport (GT in the US) uses an uprated supercharger compared to the original Evora S.

Komotec have got the V6 up to 500hp in an Exige and sell that as a proven upgrade, although expensive. Lotus have had a V6 running reliably at 450hp on the bench. The Emira has a larger engine bay and better thermal management so I suspect Lotus will do a more powerful GT Emira with either a 430 or 450 version a couple of years after the First Editions.

Lotus has never been about max power, the fastest 0-60 times or straight line speed. Nor about how much you can tune the car afterwards. I know there's a stronger tuning culture in the US and that may be to the detriment of how Lotus (and the V6) are perceived. I'm guessing the AMG will therefore appeal more to those who want to modify.

 

[~el~jefe~]

The BMW engine does not even have a dipstick to check oil. So many have detonated into stupid oblivion already. The better engine is the one that does not die, clearly it is the Toyota. Also tuned port+direct injection. Made in Japan vs. Made to have maintenance and make a dealership more wealthy.

 

[FederGigant]

The BMWs equipped with the B58 measure the oil themselves and show it on the infotainment screen. The car also tells you when it needs oil in real-time. By the way, I have never heard about one single B58 that died.

 

[Matthaus]

I've had a B58 BMW and it was fantastic. Also never heard of any going bang.