Toyota 2GR-FE engine vs. BMW B58 (Supra) engine

[4GIV8M3]

@EM33RA correct, it's the old engine. Nothing lightweight and nothing forged, of course. Lotus hasn't changed anything in nearly a decade. Meaning the 2gr-fe will be used for almost 15 years with no improvements. Sad

 

[PaulP]

That is, actually, sad

 

[forest]

@EM33RA correct, it's the old engine. Nothing lightweight and nothing forged, of course. Lotus hasn't changed anything in nearly a decade. Meaning the 2gr-fe will be used for almost 15 years with no improvements. Sad

The 2GR-FE is an engine for NA that debuted in 2005.
It has a high compression ratio of 10.8 and is not designed for a supercharger.
Toyota has not had a 6-cylinder engine since then except for the 1UR type over 4600 cc and the V10 used in the LFA.
That is why the Supra is a joint development using BMW's engine.
However, 2GR-FE is lightweight

 

[FederGigant]

@EM33RA correct, it's the old engine. Nothing lightweight and nothing forged, of course. Lotus hasn't changed anything in nearly a decade. Meaning the 2gr-fe will be used for almost 15 years with no improvements. Sad

Why do you always have to spread lies and „correct“ those persons in the forum that are well informed with your silly nonsense? Of course there are a lot of forged parts on the 2GR, of course it is lightweight (only ~5 kg heavier than the AMG engine with half the displacement) and of course it got improved over the time by Lotus. On the first application there wasn‘t even a supercharger, than one that wasn’t charge cooled, then cooled, the superchargers changed as well over time and so on. What are you even talking about? Every single post of you screams „I know nothing but have to spread my wisdom“. Get a live!

 

[4GIV8M3]

Why do you always have to spread lies and „correct“ those persons in the forum that are well informed with your silly nonsense? Of course there are a lot of forged parts on the 2GR, of course it is lightweight (only ~5 kg heavier than the AMG engine with half the displacement) and of course it got improved over the time by Lotus. On the first application there wasn‘t even a supercharger, than one that wasn’t charge cooled, then cooled, the superchargers changed as well over time and so on. What are you even talking about? Every single post of you screams „I know nothing but have to spread my wisdom“. Get a live!

What was changed from the 2gr-fe when Lotus got it then? Here's a hint....nothing

Also what have I said that was incorrect? The only thing that changed was the supercharger. We are talking about the egine....

 

[4GIV8M3]

@forest the engine weight isn't bad but IMO the weight of supercharger should be added. I don't have anything official but the regular Evora was 120lbs lighter than the Evora S which added the charger but didn't have the upgraded cooling. I figure the charger, intercooler and all that adds 60-100 lbs ( I have a harrop charger on one of my other cars and these things are HEAVY) The charger intercooler itself is just under 60lbs

 

[FederGigant]

What was changed from the 2gr-fe when Lotus got it then? Here's a hint....nothing

Also what have I said that was incorrect? The only thing that changed was the supercharger. We are talking about the egine....

„Nothing lightweight, nothing forged“ for example. No sense in discussing that though…
I know the B58, I had it, my parents also still have it in their Z4 and I can only say that it is one hell of an engine. But what about the B58 is better than the Emiras variant of the 2GR? It has more torque and it is more fuel efficient, fair enough. You could also say it‘s more tuneable. You could get double the 2GRs hp without having to worry too much about the engine. But how big is the percentage of people tuning their engines?
On the other hand the 2GR makes more hp stock, is lighter, at least as reliable, needs less maintenance, sounds way better and feels more like an na engine (some like that, some others prefer the turbo boost). With all that said, what exactly would enhance my driving experience in an Emira with a B58 fitted to it (imagining that the engine would fit which it doesn‘t, of course)? I just don‘t get that. Sure the B58 is way more modern, but that doesn‘t mean that I would have more fun with it. I also wouldn’t have more fun if the 2GR had direct fuel injection, if Lotus would have changed some internals that don’t affect neither power nor reliability, and I wouldn’t have more fun if it had a closed deck design and could handle 600hp which it still wouldn‘t have gotten anyways due to other limiting factors. So what should they change to make it better?

 

[switchlanez]

How do we know it’s the latest engine in the Lotus vs the old one ☝️ not updated with all the above.

Any supercharged Lotus version tuned beyond Toyota factory spec should have those updates to support higher output power. Whether it is the latest revision among Lotus revisions isn't something I know or am claiming. You might be conflating that with my statement about its supercharger having Eaton's current TVS R1740 technology implemented by Edelbrock.

 

[Pegasi]

@EM33RA correct, it's the old engine. Nothing lightweight and nothing forged, of course. Lotus hasn't changed anything in nearly a decade. Meaning the 2gr-fe will be used for almost 15 years with no improvements. Sad

My opinion is that there are basically 5 things that define a performance engine for street/track cars. HP curve, Torque curve, weight, reliability, and sound. Now (since I am an expert because I just tracked an Evora lol) the 2GR-FE felt great to me in the Evora. My 2004 4Runner with a NA V8 was awesome. When we got the new 4runner with the V6 aluminum engine it was still great but I would trade that in a second for my older V8.

What improvements would you want to see with the engine? And isn't there something to be said about an engine that provides enjoyment over decades like the Dodge 392s??

 

[forest]

What was changed from the 2gr-fe when Lotus got it then? Here's a hint....nothing

Also what have I said that was incorrect? The only thing that changed was the supercharger. We are talking about the egine....

I think you are mistaken about something.
Not all new engines are better.
The B58 engine is a longer stroke from the older N55 engine.
This is obviously not a change aimed at higher power.
Most modern engines are aimed at improving efficiency and fuel economy at low rpm.
In many cases, it is more common for older engines to provide higher power output.
The 2JZ from the 1990s was able to handle 1000 hp with the engine block intact and is still in use in competition.

In the future, it will be difficult to make new high output engines except for some automakers that make sports cars such as Ferrari.
I think we should be more thankful for the last pure internal combustion engine car from Lotus.

 

[GreenDeal]

Hey guys, to be honest I don't really understand the discussion here. Both cars, both the Supra, with or without manual transmission, and the Emira will have their "raison d'être". I'm absolutely sure with this!! None of us on the forum have ever driven both cars! If God willing and if Lotus doesn't get "flabby" in the production of the Emira, I'll drive both cars in the summer. And sorry, both have an automatic transmission! Then maybe a few more lines about the engine developments. It may have escaped the notice of some, but very few internal combustion engines are being developed anymore due to environmental concerns and climate change. One of the few manufacturers that is still doing something new is Mazda with its high-density Skyaktiv X engine ("Diesotto engine") and the Wankel. Of course you can howl at the beautiful old engines, but "unfortunately" they will soon be history... So stop nagging and be happy that Lotus will still be building cars with combustion engines until 2028 for their 80th birthday!!!

 

[DaaS]

I have the new Supra and an Evora GT. Both auto. Both are fun and provide a unique experience in their own way. If tuning is your thing, B58 is the better platform, but I believe the ECU has been locked since the 2021 production year. You can talk all you want about how easily you can add power, but it isn’t that easy. I think you have to ship the ECU somewhere to unlock it, regardless bye bye warranty.

 

[GreenDeal]

Engine tuning should definitely be done by a specialist! I would never have a "simple" chip tuning done, but would advise replacing the control unit. I had my Supra tuned by Schnitzer in Aachen/Germany. Now she has 400 HP and 600 Nm. There is something similar at the DÄHler company in Switzerland/Bern. I believe this motor power is enough for most of us! All devices (control unit and add-on parts) have a 3-year guarantee from Schnitzer and if the control unit is updated (e.g. Toyota recall campaign), the increase in performance is retained and chip tuning does not have to be carried out again (which then usually costs money again). will.

 

[4GIV8M3]

@forest yes they shortened stroke as that's the #1 thing to build more power and raise the red line. The B58 is a HUGE improvement over the the N54n/n55. Anyone who has owned both says that. Incase you werent aware it makes more power while being more efficient and more reliably. Im not sure how any of that can be turned into something negative. It's almost as if anything Lotus does no matter how bad, it can be turned into some positive by using bias. Also the B58 is over 100 lbs lighter than the 2GR and even more when you add the supercharger.

 

[GreenDeal]

Hey guys, both cars (Supra and Emira) weigh about the same - about 1,500 kg! So what's your problem there? For me, Emira's performances are much more exciting. I'm more interested in the weight distribution and the driving experience. I don't really care about anything else. The Emira (and also the Supra) must be fun - and I tell you - it will be too...

 

[FederGigant]

@forest yes they shortened stroke as that's the #1 thing to build more power and raise the red line. The B58 is a HUGE improvement over the the N54n/n55. Anyone who has owned both says that. Incase you werent aware it makes more power while being more efficient and more reliably. Im not sure how any of that can be turned into something negative. It's almost as if anything Lotus does no matter how bad, it can be turned into some positive by using bias. Also the B58 is over 100 lbs lighter than the 2GR and even more when you add the supercharger.

Again a simple lie... the 2GR is lighter than the B58, one reason being that the B58 is a more massive closed deck architecture. Please link your source of information about the two engines weight figures. I also don't get what it has to do with Lotus that the B58 is an improvement over the N55. What I like about your post however is that you didn't answer any question and ignored all the points that we made. That strengthens the picture I have about you.

 

[FederGigant]

Hey guys, both cars (Supra and Emira) weigh about the same - about 1,500 kg! So what's your problem there? For me, Emira's performances are much more exciting. I'm more interested in the weight distribution and the driving experience. I don't really care about anything else. The Emira (and also the Supra) must be fun - and I tell you - it will be too...

The 6-Cylinder Supra is at least 130 kg heavier than the V6 Emira

 

[GreenDeal]

I don't quite think so! The weight of the Emira is given as at least 1,405 kg. I'm assuming this is the base model (maybe the I4 AMG??). Therefore, the FE V6 will definitely weigh more. But I can also be wrong - let's just take a look and let ourselves be surprised... When I have my Emira, I'll take her and the Supra to the scales at the building materials dealer. Then we will know for sure. Until then, a deformation-free journey and greetings from the Palatinate...

 

[FederGigant]

I don't quite think so! The weight of the Emira is given as at least 1,405 kg. I'm assuming this is the base model (maybe the I4 AMG??). Therefore, the FE V6 will definitely weigh more. But I can also be wrong - let's just take a look and let ourselves be surprised... When I have my Emira, I'll take her and the Supra to the scales at the building materials dealer. Then we will know for sure. Until then, a deformation-free journey and greetings from the Palatinate...

The i4 base weighs 1405kg and the V6 FE with full spec weighs 1447kg manual and 1458kg automatic. The i6 Supra weighs 1570kg with base spec. I don't know how many heavy extras you can add there.

 

[Pops68]

Well, sure.. They make it work for a mid engine layout by fabbing a custom intake and exhaust, but the actual engine is untouched besides the blower and charge cooler bolted to the top and larger fuel injectors. Lotus doesn't touch the internals at all. Same pistons, same cams, etc.

I'm not even convinced they really regear the transmission at all. Some say the final gear ratio is slightly adjusted and others claim the gears are simply cryo treated to be a little stronger and that's it.

Seems to me that isn't a bad thing. We'll have a time-tested and proven power plant with parts and service available should something dire occur...