Emira track impressions

[jp129]

Totally understood on the theory and not judging in a vacuum based on one factor, but I cannot ignore what I've observed between driving Cayman, 911 and Emira when they exceed their grip limits - as subjective as that might be. I'd keep a more open mind in either direction as a benefit for driver skill development.

100%, as we all know, there are many factors that influence chassis dynamics and balance. Static WD is just one data point.

 

[OppositeLock]

The Cayman is a more balanced car than the Emira, for sure, and at the limit it's pretty neutral. More factors into this, though. The Emira has a LOT more rubber in the rear than the front, and Lotus is clearly tuning it for understeering. When I was driving mine on the track in a giant rain storm, when I exceeded the limit, the car wanted to spin, the back really wants to be in front coming out of a turn. IMO, the engineering of the whole car dynamics matter more than the difference between Cg and moment of inertia. 911's have a rear engine (but moving forwards with the generations), and despite that, they're among the fastest cars on the track, and inspire confidence. They are INSANE when braking. The engineering is fantastic, however, they are there to do a job, run the fastest laps, and there isn't all that much character, just pure precision. The Emira feels a lot more relaxed to drive than my Elise was, despite going a little faster, and it's a car with some character. It will never go as fast as a 911 GT car, but it's more fun for me. The steering wheel feedback is fantastic compared to a 911/Cayman, which you can really feel when it takes a "set" in a turn, and you adjust a little bit. I love to see how close I can get to those "big boys". My last Laguna Seca track day, before I got the Nitrons and Dunlops, I was running 1:42 laps, not great, not bad. There was a GT3RS running 1:26's. I will never find 16s in the Emira, unless I totally strip it out into a track toy and add lots of power and aero (and the GT3RS is a streetable car).

 

[NorCalEmira]

The Cayman is a more balanced car than the Emira, for sure, and at the limit it's pretty neutral. More factors into this, though. The Emira has a LOT more rubber in the rear than the front, and Lotus is clearly tuning it for understeering. When I was driving mine on the track in a giant rain storm, when I exceeded the limit, the car wanted to spin, the back really wants to be in front coming out of a turn. IMO, the engineering of the whole car dynamics matter more than the difference between Cg and moment of inertia. 911's have a rear engine (but moving forwards with the generations), and despite that, they're among the fastest cars on the track, and inspire confidence. They are INSANE when braking. The engineering is fantastic, however, they are there to do a job, run the fastest laps, and there isn't all that much character, just pure precision. The Emira feels a lot more relaxed to drive than my Elise was, despite going a little faster, and it's a car with some character. It will never go as fast as a 911 GT car, but it's more fun for me. The steering wheel feedback is fantastic compared to a 911/Cayman, which you can really feel when it takes a "set" in a turn, and you adjust a little bit. I love to see how close I can get to those "big boys". My last Laguna Seca track day, before I got the Nitrons and Dunlops, I was running 1:42 laps, not great, not bad. There was a GT3RS running 1:26's. I will never find 16s in the Emira, unless I totally strip it out into a track toy and add lots of power and aero (and the GT3RS is a streetable car).

It will be interesting to see how your lap times improve with the suspension and tire upgrades. The Porsche GT series and the RS in particular have really doubled down on aerodynamics with each successive generation. That has been the primary driver of their improved performance as normally aspirated power has reached a plateau.

 

[sirringo]

The Cayman is a more balanced car than the Emira, for sure, and at the limit it's pretty neutral. More factors into this, though. The Emira has a LOT more rubber in the rear than the front, and Lotus is clearly tuning it for understeering. When I was driving mine on the track in a giant rain storm, when I exceeded the limit, the car wanted to spin, the back really wants to be in front coming out of a turn. IMO, the engineering of the whole car dynamics matter more than the difference between Cg and moment of inertia. 911's have a rear engine (but moving forwards with the generations), and despite that, they're among the fastest cars on the track, and inspire confidence. They are INSANE when braking. The engineering is fantastic, however, they are there to do a job, run the fastest laps, and there isn't all that much character, just pure precision. The Emira feels a lot more relaxed to drive than my Elise was, despite going a little faster, and it's a car with some character. It will never go as fast as a 911 GT car, but it's more fun for me. The steering wheel feedback is fantastic compared to a 911/Cayman, which you can really feel when it takes a "set" in a turn, and you adjust a little bit. I love to see how close I can get to those "big boys". My last Laguna Seca track day, before I got the Nitrons and Dunlops, I was running 1:42 laps, not great, not bad. There was a GT3RS running 1:26's. I will never find 16s in the Emira, unless I totally strip it out into a track toy and add lots of power and aero (and the GT3RS is a streetable car).

Will you be at Laguna with Lightspeed on July 17th by chance? I'll keep an eye out if so!

I haven't heard of any 3RSs running 26s...I know SP's is in the 28s. Maybe they've dropped further as they've kept modding it, but every tenth gets harder from here!

 

[OppositeLock]

The really fast GT3RS guy _told_ me that he was doing 1:26's, I don't have proof. Some creative storytelling could always be involved, but given his insane closing speed on me, I'm sure he was incredibly fast. He absolutely reeled me in the high speed corners, which makes sense with aero.

 

[OppositeLock]

I'm finally getting the hang of driving the Emira. Here's some video from a recent track day, in high heat, about 100F temperature. Linking to my best lap, naturally The line is a little different than the Elise, since you're concerned more about setting up for applying power, than to preserving momentum in a turn, particularly since you can't preserve as much momentum.



The car is on Dunlop Sport Maxx Race 2 tires, which I destroyed, sadly, but it's quick! I've tracked the heck out of my Elise for 16 years, and now I'm beating those Elise lap times handily, at the cost of much more tire and fuel.

Brakes on this car are really good. The rotors are huge, and there are no heat problems. They are running at their very limit, though, and turn a blueish color from the high heat, so I don't think you can tune up the car too much without overpowering your brakes.

The OEM suspension maxes about -2 degrees camber in front and rear, and that's definitely not enough in the rear, since I had major tire wear on the outsides of the tires, and hardly any on the insides. The fronts wore much more evenly. We're going to need some new A-arms or something to increase camber any more.

Since I'm so used to Elise G-forces, I think trying to recreate those in the Emira is too much for the rubber. Gotta figure out how to go fast but be more gentle on the tires. Easier said than done. Too bad I don't have a sponsor to buy me some tires!

 

[Tracked Emira]

I'm finally getting the hang of driving the Emira. Here's some video from a recent track day, in high heat, about 100F temperature. Linking to my best lap, naturally The line is a little different than the Elise, since you're concerned more about setting up for applying power, than to preserving momentum in a turn, particularly since you can't preserve as much momentum.



The car is on Dunlop Sport Maxx Race 2 tires, which I destroyed, sadly, but it's quick! I've tracked the heck out of my Elise for 16 years, and now I'm beating those Elise lap times handily, at the cost of much more tire and fuel.

Brakes on this car are really good. The rotors are huge, and there are no heat problems. They are running at their very limit, though, and turn a blueish color from the high heat, so I don't think you can tune up the car too much without overpowering your brakes.

The OEM suspension maxes about -2 degrees camber in front and rear, and that's definitely not enough in the rear, since I had major tire wear on the outsides of the tires, and hardly any on the insides. The fronts wore much more evenly. We're going to need some new A-arms or something to increase camber any more.

Since I'm so used to Elise G-forces, I think trying to recreate those in the Emira is too much for the rubber. Gotta figure out how to go fast but be more gentle on the tires. Easier said than done. Too bad I don't have a sponsor to buy me some tires!

Waiting for GRP to make them already. Greg, when can we expect some adjustable ones to be made?

 

[MickOpalak]

911's have a rear engine (but moving forwards with the generations), and despite that, they're among the fastest cars on the track, and inspire confidence. They are INSANE when braking. The engineering is fantastic, however, they are there to do a job, run the fastest laps, and there isn't all that much character, just pure precision.

And despite that, no one else builds a rear engined sports car.

No rear engined F1 cars. No rear engined WEC cars. No rear engined NASCARs. No rear engined IRL cars.

No rear engined Ferraris. No rear engined Lamborghinis. No rear engined Maseratis. No rear engined Alfa Romeos. No rear engined McLarens. No rear engined GMAs. Etc.

It's almost as if there is something inherently wrong with the design.

 

[Chriscpm]

The Ferodo 1.11s feel different on the street for my test drive. More bite. I'll know more this afternoon.

The Ferodo 1.11 feel good to me. A strong initial bite. Then nice feel.

I ran the Cayman 981 in the morning, then the Lotus in the afternoon. A hot Florida day. I had a passenger in the afternoon and still edged out a PB for that track.

The Cayman has a stock suspension, but Sports Plus mode PDK, with Pagid RSL29. The Lotus is faster.

Here are some tire pictures. The Cayman is easy in tires with -1.5 or so camber. I had a shop do an alignment on the Lotus. He said he maxed out the negative camber, but didn;t give me a printout. I htought he said about -1.5 The Lotus is so rough on the sidewalls. The Contis are super forgiving on the sidewalls and still are not happy. Both have a couple track days.

 

[OppositeLock]

Yeah, I'm not sure why the Emira is so hard on the tires. I see signs of insufficient camber, and signs of overheating. The rear tire is scrubbed off on the outside but plenty of rubber elsewhere. The front tire is losing chunks of thread block.

 

[TomAce]

My thoughts are that even with sport suspension it's way too soft for the type of driving you do on tracks.

For the track you probably need adjustable coilovers so there's considerably less roll.

 

[OppositeLock]

I'm on Nitron ClubSports. There is less roll than stock, for sure, but still lots.

 

[TomAce]

I'm on Nitron ClubSports. There is less roll than stock, for sure, but still lots.

Oh, sorry. Wasn't aware of this.

 

[gcmak]

Not going to beat on this but the emira also being decently more rear-biased in weight than the cayman does have an impact. at first blush, the emira having double wishbone in the front and rear should work in it's favor over the strut-based cayman, but as evidenced by multiple drivers who have seat time in both a cayman and emira, there's a lot more to it.

 

[OppositeLock]

Porsche simply makes better engineered cars than Lotus. The 911 has weight distribution similar to an Emira, and the 911 GT cars will beat those better balanced Caymans. 911 is about 39/61, Cayman is around 45/55 and V6 Emira is 39/61, however, the Emira's engine sits more rearward than the Porsches, and higher up.

 

[Chriscpm]

Yeah, I'm not sure why the Emira is so hard on the tires. I see signs of insufficient camber, and signs of overheating. The rear tire is scrubbed off on the outside but plenty of rubber elsewhere. The front tire is losing chunks of thread block.

Here is a video of a pro driver in my car. He beats my time by 7 seconds. Plus he can do more. He wanted to give me an example that I could relate to.

He said the car needs way more camber. Basically only 1/3 of the tire is on the ground on some turns.

On suspension stiffness, a lot of Porsche guys do the Olins Street-Track coilovers. Those are SOFTER than the sport springs on the Emira. Olins are 70 N/mm and 80N.mm. Lotus is 115N/mm.

Lotus is way more fun!

 

[jp129]

On suspension stiffness, a lot of Porsche guys do the Olins Street-Track coilovers. Those are SOFTER than the sport springs on the Emira. Olins are 70 N/mm and 80N.mm. Lotus is 115N/mm.

Your additional feedback is a good data point.

Just to add on this point about suspension stiffness, it's challenging to compare chassis to chassis unless we know the wheel motion ratios. I suspect you're already aware, but for those that aren't, they dictate the relationship/ratio between between wheel travel and shock travel. This determines the suspension characteristics, thus comparing spring rates alone isn't entirely useful, unless the motion ratios are the same/similar.

 

[Chriscpm]

 

[Chriscpm]

Your additional feedback is a good data point.

Just to add on this point about suspension stiffness, it's challenging to compare chassis to chassis unless we know the wheel motion ratios. I suspect you're already aware, but for those that aren't, they dictate the relationship/ratio between between wheel travel and shock travel. This determines the suspension characteristics, thus comparing spring rates alone isn't entirely useful, unless the motion ratios are the same/similar.

I really don't know much on track stuff, but I'm picking things up. LOL. I looked up the wheel motion ratio. There is a mention of how that is related to how stiff the car feels while driving. Normally ... I don't like sports suspensions on a street car. But the Emira doesn't feel bad to me. It's not smooth, but not punishing either. From what your saying, putting the Olins coilovers on the Cayman might have a harsh ride, even with softer springs. Hmmm.

I think to be serious with the Emira, I'd need adjustable control arms, a rev matching module and maybe 18 inch wheels. My Cayman does have 18s now versus the stock 20s on the Emira. 18s on the Emira might give it some wheel flex to help keep more tire on the ground. A local guy quoted custom control arms, installed, with an alignment for $6k. That was shocking, but might be worth it. He wins amateur races, so his setup would likely be pretty bad ass.

 

[OppositeLock]

18" wheels make tires more plentiful and cheaper. Since I still street drive this car, though, I would prefer to keep the parking brake intact. 18" wheels won't clear the motor housing.