Anyone driven the M139 (AMG A45 etc)?

[TheMotizzle]

I've read a lot of Emira test drives describing the V6 (and took a test drive myself), but I'm curious what the i4 M139 will be like. Anyone who's driven one, can you give your thoughts? For example, a common note is the V6 has a lot of linear power in the mid range but lacks top end. How's the DCT?

My deposit is for an i4 and am very excited for this engine and DCT.

 

[ADC]

Unfortunately, anyone who is given the opportunity to drive an i4 Emira seems to be immediately taken out the back, knocked on the head, and buried under the Hethel test track. It's all still very Secret Squirrel at this stage. Which is exasperating.

EDIT: On rereading your question, I realise you meant anyone with any experience with this drivetrain in other vehicles... but my post stands, so i'll leave it

Come to mention it... was this guy ever seen again? 🕵️‍♂️

 

[TheMotizzle]

Unfortunately, anyone who is given the opportunity to drive an i4 Emira seems to be immediately taken out the back, knocked on the head, and buried under the Hethel test track. It's all still very Secret Squirrel at this stage. Which is exasperating.

EDIT: On rereading your question, I realise you meant anyone with any experience with this drivetrain in other vehicles... but my post stands, so i'll leave it

Haha yes, anyone who's driven other cars with the M139, but your post made me laugh nonetheless.

 

[TomE]

It's only going to be a very general comparison if you drive the i4 in the Mercedes. Lotus have de-tuned it for the Emira and changed the intakes and exhaust to get a more linear and "Lotus-like" character. Plus it's mid engine RWD in the Emira and front engine AWD in the Mercedes, so will feel quite different.

 

[TheMotizzle]

It's only going to be a very general comparison if you drive the i4 in the Mercedes. Lotus have de-tuned it for the Emira and changed the intakes and exhaust to get a more linear and "Lotus-like" character. Plus it's mid engine RWD in the Emira and front engine AWD in the Mercedes, so will feel quite different.

Great point and totally fair. Knowing all that I'd still be curious to hear people's experiences with the M139. I'd also be interested to hear the differences/similarities between the V6 in the Emira and other cars it's used in to set expectations accordingly.

 

[Pegasi]

I posted in another thread how Lotus in the past has been tapped to tune other manufacturers cars. I am speaking about stuff I don't really understand here but it seems to be there is a lot of engineering in this small company. They certainly can take that I4 and make it behave like a totally different engine. When I have had cars custom tuned in the past on a dyno the tuner would ask me about shift points, low end power vs high end, essentially saying they can tune it to my liking. Lotus doesn't build the block but it seems as though they do a good job getting engines to match driving dynamics and I think that may add to the feel of the handling more than we suspect.

 

[TheMotizzle]

I posted in another thread how Lotus in the past has been tapped to tune other manufacturers cars. I am speaking about stuff I don't really understand here but it seems to be there is a lot of engineering in this small company. They certainly can take that I4 and make it behave like a totally different engine. When I have had cars custom tuned in the past on a dyno the tuner would ask me about shift points, low end power vs high end, essentially saying they can tune it to my liking. They don't build the block but it seems as though they do a good job getting engines to match driving dynamics and I think that may add to the feel of the handling more than we suspect.

Oh wow, I had no idea they could tweak the profile that much, but it definitely makes sense. Makes me think of when a company will tweak an engine differently for a truck vs a car.

 

[Pegasi]

I do think it would be interesting to hear people talk about the M139 in other cars as the OP suggested though.

 

[Pegasi]

Oh wow, I had no idea they could tweak the profile that much, but it definitely makes sense. Makes me think of when a company will tweak an engine differently for a truck vs a car.

Jay Leno used the term "Lotus-ize" the engine. I just so happened to be reading about how Chevy tuned that flat planed crank engine in the Z06 and I find it very interesting the engineering behind tuning and the tradeoffs they have to make. You can't have everything, if you do then you have an F1 engine.

 

[wallstbear]

I posted in another thread how Lotus in the past has been tapped to tune other manufacturers cars. I am speaking about stuff I don't really understand here but it seems to be there is a lot of engineering in this small company. They certainly can take that I4 and make it behave like a totally different engine. When I have had cars custom tuned in the past on a dyno the tuner would ask me about shift points, low end power vs high end, essentially saying they can tune it to my liking. Lotus doesn't build the block but it seems as though they do a good job getting engines to match driving dynamics and I think that may add to the feel of the handling more than we suspect.

Genuinely curious here -- if they have a lot of engineering why can't they just make an engine rather than using a 15 year old model from the Camry? I mean it's gotta be a pain in the butt to rely on other companies for engines.

 

[Pegasi]

Genuinely curious here -- if they have a lot of engineering why can't they just make an engine rather than using a 15 year old model from the Camry? I mean it's gotta be a pain in the butt to rely on other companies for engines.

Doesn't it seem like larger companies just make more stuff in house?

Also Lotus is known for Simplify, then add lightness. I think a lot of this was achieved with their chassis. When you bond aluminum instead of weld it you can use 30 or 40% less material. (I remember the number to be something like that.) Welding weakens the frame and therefore you must add more mass. So maybe engine making wasn't critical to achieve their goal of having a light weight car.

And I believe McLaren also uses Mercedes engines so Lotus isn't the only one. For the size of Lotus they seem to have a substantial "consulting" business throughout the car industry with their engineering expertise.

To answer you question though, I have no idea.

 

[Pegasi]

Genuinely curious here -- if they have a lot of engineering why can't they just make an engine rather than using a 15 year old model from the Camry? I mean it's gotta be a pain in the butt to rely on other companies for engines.

You know Dodge has used the Hemi engine in SUVs, Jeeps, and multiple cars and I have never heard anyone call that engine old? Is the because of how much HP they make? It has always intrigued me why people on this forum talk about how old the Camry engine is. I always think to myself, why does that matter. Do they want a higher redline? Better MPG? What does a new engine give you? Lighter? Honestly asking what people want.

 

[TomE]

Great point and totally fair. Knowing all that I'd still be curious to hear people's experiences with the M139. I'd also be interested to hear the differences/similarities between the V6 in the Emira and other cars it's used in to set expectations accordingly.

The V6 was used in the Toyota Camry, Avalon and Aurion. It drives a bit differently in the Evora, Exige and Emira

 

[Cory]

The V6 was used in the Toyota Camry, Avalon and Aurion. It drives a bit differently in the Evora, Exige and Emira

Don’t forget the RAV4, also where the gearbox comes from. Show respect. 😉

 

[Nova]

It's only going to be a very general comparison if you drive the i4 in the Mercedes. Lotus have de-tuned it for the Emira and changed the intakes and exhaust to get a more linear and "Lotus-like" character. Plus it's mid engine RWD in the Emira and front engine AWD in the Mercedes, so will feel quite different.

This was described to you by people in the know? As far as I understand, the M139 already has a pretty linear power delivery. The small turbo MB engines, including the M139, are characterized by delivering the sensation of a naturally aspirated large displacement engine with good low end torque that continues to build - the torque peak is at 5K. This is in contrast to other high output turbo engines where the torque peaks at much lower RPMS and falls quickly towards the mid and upper RPMs. The GTI, STI, and Supra are good examples of this. Also as far as I know, this is a conscious design decision by MB and one that is implemented using software control instead of special intake/exhaust configuration. Fiddling with the intake and exhaust will make some measurable differences at the edges, but those are going to be relatively minor and would not change the characteristic of the engine.

 

[ADC]

This was described to you by people in the know? As far as I understand, the M139 already has a pretty linear power delivery. The small turbo MB engines, including the M139, are characterized by delivering the sensation of a naturally aspirated large displacement engine with good low end torque that continues to build - the torque peak is at 5K. This is in contrast to other high output turbo engines where the torque peaks at much lower RPMS and falls quickly towards the mid and upper RPMs. The GTI, STI, and Supra are good examples of this. Also as far as I know, this is a conscious design decision by MB and one that is implemented using software control instead of special intake/exhaust configuration. Fiddling with the intake and exhaust will make some measurable differences at the edges, but those are going to be relatively minor and would not change the characteristic of the engine.

This description matches my understanding of the "base" m139 as well, and was part of why Lotus was drawn to choosing it. I am sure they have tweaked the bejesus out of everything, but it was a solid starting point to work from.

 

[MickOpalak]

I posted in another thread how Lotus in the past has been tapped to tune other manufacturers cars. I am speaking about stuff I don't really understand here but it seems to be there is a lot of engineering in this small company.

Lotus Engineering is a different division of Group Lotus than the automobile manufacturing division and I would imagine a bit bigger also.

 

[Pegasi]

Lotus Engineering is a different division of Group Lotus than the automobile manufacturing division and I would imagine a bit bigger also.

A little over 100 engineers was my understanding. To be honest I don't know how that compares to others.

 

[emiraspain]

Genuinely curious here -- if they have a lot of engineering why can't they just make an engine rather than using a 15 year old model from the Camry? I mean it's gotta be a pain in the butt to rely on other companies for engines.

You will probably find the cost to develop an engine runs into 100's of milliones and even a billion as crazy as it sounds. One that is efficient enough to comply with regulations etc. This is why there is so much sharing of costs even with the big car companies, Mazda, ford, Renault....

Revealed: The $1.4 Billion Cost Of Developing F1 Engines

The cost of developing F1 engines has been revealed in new research which shows that an auto maker needs to spend around $1.4 billion in order to win.

www.forbes.com

and this engine doesnt even need to last more than maybe 10 races....

 

[Cutting42]

And I believe McLaren also uses Mercedes engines so Lotus isn't the only one. For the size of Lotus they seem to have a substantial "consulting" business throughout the car industry with their engineering expertise.

Nope, they use Ricardo

Engines

Engine efficiency was the foundation upon which the Ricardo Group was originally built

ricardo.com