Is it futile to compare the Emira with Porsche 718/Boxter/Caymen

[emiraspain]

Boggles the mind that they had a competitor in mind and came up short. God I wanted to love the Emira and be blown away by it. Was at local Porsche dealer yesterday for service and inquired about a GTS 4.0 or GT4. 12-18 months out with ADM. I know someone that can get me either at MSRP so depending on how the Emira test drives, I have a backup option. We’ll see how things go. Thinking European Delivery and then Experience Center in LA with a Porsche isn’t shabby at all.

I understand your feelings, but if you or I thought about playing tennis with John McEnroe in 2 3 4 5 years, even with him being around 70 at the time, we couldn't compete with him, its not that hard to understand why.
1. we have limited resources 2. limited time, and 3. limited interest in competing with him. We would probably rather get to a decent level and "enjoy" playing at our local club.
Not a good analogy, maybe, but I think we need to forget what we have seen or heard about Lotus setting out to beat the Cayman, I think this is an error and a big one. I have never looked for or heard them saying thats what they would do, but maybe I am wrong, or maybe someone spoke out of turn or out of fantasy. Lotus will never beat the Cayman, simple as that, if the other far larger than Lotus, Germans, French and Americans cant do it, why would we think a very limited budget Lotus can?
So forget what they and others told us, if they did tell us that. You cant do it, no one has ever done it in reality. And even if they do do it, in terms of lap times, the Cayman still wins out as journalists love it more than life itself (911 GT3 aside). And remember how many years this car has taken to get to where it is, as to be fair, for most of its life it looked like a small far whale from its side view. Take into account the same constraints, the time, the limited budget, the limited longevity of this car, the limited sales numbers and what lotus actually set out to achieve.

Lotus set out to renew their reputation, put them back on the map and also make a FUN car, a spectacular looking car and yes a drivers car, but not a ""perfection seeking" drivers car, not a "track lap time shaving" drivers car, for that go for your porsche, BMW M4 and enjoy, but also never buy an Alfa Romeo or any petrol engined character filled car and certainly not a Lotus in your life, as they will never give you perfection, or even that close to it.

I see both sides, I have had the 718 and its so good, it becomes boring and it certainly looks boring in comparison, inside and out. I would never begrudge anyone buying one, it still tempts me (sypder more than cayman), but forget expecting the Lotus to be a porsche, its not, it doesn't want to be, it wont be and it will never be, what it is, is a L O T U S and that is enough for most of us...... as long as its reliable haha

I do believe if you give Lotus a blank piece of paper and the resources VW have and 3 - 4 years, which is the time frame many cars go for development, then and only then, could you and others on the fence with Porsche, get what you want, but that was not and is not the case, so you are wasting your time if you are expecting any car journalist to put it ahead of the Cayman, although one has I think. But I still feel inside, that most of those journalists would take home to their friends and family, the LOTUS and if they dont, well good luck to them...

 

[switchlanez]

Following on my last post. I believe the i4 has a real shot at C8-like Web 2.0 glory. DCT like supercars, lower price point and, thus, more ubiquitous and hopefully a tuner's dream, supercar killer level performance variants. It will be like the EcoBoost Mustang (crapped on at launch, popular and respected today thanks to the Ford GT supercar then Focus RS carrying the EcoBoost brand). Or the 2.0T Genesis coupe which had a bigger following over the higher spec 3.8L N/A V6. Emira i4 could execute like that on the next echelon of sports car hierarchy.

Not my cup of tea but I'm starting to sense what the younger gens get excited about with DCTs, EVs, etc. The next C8 will be a hybrid followed by all EV as announced by GM. I'm the new boomer cross-shopping the V6 Emira and C8 which, in a few years, will be left in the dust by all the hybrids, EVs, i4 DCT, etc. Maybe Lotus knows this and is banking all the marbles on the i4.

 

[TomE]

Cayman was the benchmark for Lotus in developing the Emira. They didn’t need to beat it at everything (or anything), just use it as a reference point, along with others like the F-Type. They don’t need to sell more Emiras than Caymans, just more than Evoras.

Emira isn’t an end point, it’s a stepping stone. Lotus is transforming into a performance EV company. The Emira will be around for 5-8 years but Lotus will have launched 5 EVs by then, including an EV replacement for Emira.

They’ll put some modest further investment into the Emira model plan (like the GT or S) but mainly the Emira helps signal that New Lotus is here and can build a great sportscar that’s competitive in the segment.

The EVs are the future. Let’s enjoy the last ICE car while we can.

 

[Evotion]

In what sense?

In the Cayman is ahead in many areas by very small margins and just putting the V^ up 10 or 20/30 HP won't suddenly maKe it beat the Cayman in reviewers' eyes.

It matters not. That small percentage gain in these little areas (by a vastly more experienced and funded company) is utterly SMASHED by the 50% better looks and desirability of the Emira.

 

[Evotion]

Emira's ace in the hole isn't magazine racing but emotional appeal.

Yes!

And scarcity (for at least 2 years) and might be more exciting.

 

[switchlanez]

EV is Lotus's long term focus over ICE. But for those of us interested in ICE and the Emira, I think the i4 will take priority over the Emira's lifecycle evolution. They invested in developing a new aluminum rear subframe for the i4 with a lower CoG and weight, better emissions, and it's the only engine offered in the country of the parent company Geely who calls the shots.

I play a UK-developed "simcade" racing game (Project Cars 3) and when driving the Lotuses in my garage, I can feel the continuity of lineage among the Lotus 40, Lotus 72, Lotus 98T, and Exige Cup 430. But the Evija comes way out of left field. It can't turn unless I brake miles early and relies on straights to catch up to the pack. Then I realized this is the Geely effect. A product roadmap and design language for the next 5 Lotuses mapped out before the Emira's release.

Emira is the where Lotus can still build a Lotus in the traditional sense. Or closest possible. But it's the transitional breakaway point. We already see a break from tradition with the i4 DCT and EV kinship styling. Since the 111 era started, we know the tradition of an S, a GT, a Cup, and alphanumeric combos in between. But has Lotus since offered a car with 2 engine options from launch? How do the trims play out so as to not step on each other? How will V6 stay upmarket if i4+DCT has more power potential and, from what I intuit, will be the Emira platform's focus in transition from ICE to EV?

Lotus is struggling to get an old V6 out the door when it's a matter of adapting a proven powertrain/drivetrain into a modified Evora chassis (I believe the same galvanized steel rear subframe). Imagine the same small staff getting a new engine and new drivetrain into a new aluminum rear subframe with different (lower) mounting points. I'd imagine that job to be all hands on deck with no resources to muck around with V6 variants all while primary focus is on Type 132, 133, etc. EVs. And Emira will consolidate into i4 variants once they iron out the logistics of building the first i4 (like how Ford killed the V6 Mustang to focus on marketing the i4 EcoBoost or Porsche went from flat-6 to turbo flat-4). Emira's future i4 variants will "carry" it over the ICE competition.

 

[daniel heald]

Really? The one thing you struggle the *MOST* for a 2-door mid-engine sports car is luggage space?

Yes, so much talk has been about the improved userbility of the car.: materials, cabin storage and comfort. So matching the luggage space to the benchmark car seems to me to be in the same ball park and a relatively easy one to do. A shopping bag of food is at risk of over heating in the boot. In the cabin it will / may roll around, leading to the irritation of re-packing the groceries, bent double leaning in behind the seats. A sub optimal experience.

The brilliance of Porsche is they develope designs that are pragmatic and good sports cars. Sling the engine behind the rear axle to give more cabin space for a given wheel base. Sliding strut front suspension to create a front luggage space.

Lotus from the first reviews have gone for the perfect suspension design and not created the perfect drivers car.and got harder to use luggage space. I find the choice interesting to say the least. This could all change when we experience the car ourselves. I really want Lotus to suceed.

I want to drive to Le Mans with all the camping gear needed for a great week in France. Lotus have done this before with the M100 Elan.

 

[emiraspain]

Yes, so much talk has been about the improved userbility of the car.: materials, cabin storage and comfort. So matching the luggage space to the benchmark car seems to me to be in the same ball park and a relatively easy one to do. A shopping bag of food is at risk of over heating in the boot. In the cabin it will / may roll around, leading to the irritation of re-packing the groceries, bent double leaning in behind the seats. A sub optimal experience.

The brilliance of Porsche is they develope designs that are pragmatic and good sports cars. Sling the engine behind the rear axle to give more cabin space for a given wheel base. Sliding strut front suspension to create a front luggage space.

Lotus from the first reviews have gone for the perfect suspension design and not created the perfect drivers car.and got harder to use luggage space. I find the choice interesting to say the least. This could all change when we experience the car ourselves. I really want Lotus to suceed.

I want to drive to Le Mans with all the camping gear needed for a great week in France. Lotus have done this before with the M100 Elan.

I guess there exists, and I acknowledge there should perhaps not be a need, but lifes full of such things, a cool bag which we can put our shopping in that will, for the 30/40min - 1hr journey, protect it from the engine heat.
ive shopped dozens of times in an Ariel Nomad so I really dont worry about such things too much, where there is a will, there is a way.. hah

 

[switchlanez]

@daniel heald one thing that's easily overlooked is the behind the seat luggage space (rather than rear seats as in the Evora). It looks pretty airy even if the seats are positioned way back for a tall person with lots of vertical clearance from about hip level (or even ground level) to the roof, possibly more vertical clearance or any single dimensional clearance (length, width, or height) than any Cayman compartment (frunk, trunk, or main cabin).

 

[daniel heald]

@daniel heald one thing that's easily overlooked is the behind the seat luggage space (rather than rear seats as in the Evora). It looks pretty airy even if the seats are positioned way back for a tall person with lots of vertical clearance from about hip level (or even ground level) to the roof, possibly more vertical clearance--or any single dimension dedicated to storage, be it length, width, or height--than any Cayman compartment be it frunk, trunk, or main cabin.

I drive a Vantage and it has a similar layout to the Emira. Alot of the time it works for smaller soft bags. The seats have to move forward, to create an opening to load stuff in behoind the seats. This takes time and planning as the bags need to be put down to move the seat. Hard bags are more difficult.
For grocery bags a simple set of hooks on the car bulkhead could allow the handles of the grocery bags to be hooked over and reduce their movement in the enjoyable drive home.

 

[vision]

@daniel heald one thing that's easily overlooked is the behind the seat luggage space (rather than rear seats as in the Evora). It looks pretty airy even if the seats are positioned way back for a tall person with lots of vertical clearance from about hip level (or even ground level) to the roof, possibly more vertical clearance--or any single dimension dedicated to storage, be it length, width, or height--than any Cayman compartment be it frunk, trunk, or main cabin.

I really, really give up - lets start a BMI thread so we can calculate how fat we are (seat issues - definitely do not want saggy leather), god forbid you have a passenger, that adds weight, also don't forget petrol in the tank how much? On a plus side when fully loaded with partner, kids bikes, speedos etc wheel clearance will be spot on!

It's Sunday, I want to book a holiday so need a date when my car is arriving in August. GGGrrr

 

[TomE]

It does sound like you need a holiday...

 

[Nova]

Lotus from the first reviews have gone for the perfect suspension design and not created the perfect drivers car.and got harder to use luggage space. I find the choice interesting to say the least. This could all change when we experience the car ourselves. I really want Lotus to suceed.

It wasn't their choice to build a suspension that failed to create the perfect driver's car. They made their best effort and this is what they have accomplished. Their design choices has certain implications on practicality of the car. It's a tough counterfactual to wonder if Lotus should have gone with a front strut design and ended up with a superior handling car.

 

[mjw930]

It wasn't their choice to build a suspension that failed to create the perfect driver's car. They made their best effort and this is what they have accomplished. Their design choices has certain implications on practicality of the car. It's a tough counterfactual to wonder if Lotus should have gone with a front strut design and ended up with a superior handling car.

Front strut ending up with a superior handling car, Seriously?

 

[Nova]

Front strut ending up with a superior handling car, Seriously?

Yea, the person I was replying to found it interesting that Lotus chose to use double wish bone suspension and trade off luggage space, and that show how any shortfall of the Emira's suspension is somehow a choice by Lotus. I am merely pointing out the absurdity of that contention. I am not the one who thinks the most important thing about the Lotus is luggage capacity.

 

[mjw930]

Yea, the person I was replying to found it interesting that Lotus chose to use double wish bone suspension and trade off luggage space, and that show how any shortfall of the Emira's suspension is somehow a choice by Lotus. I am merely pointing out the absurdity of that contention. I am not the one who thinks the most important thing about the Lotus is luggage capacity.

Ah, got it 👍

As a point of comparison I’ve driven what could arguably be considered the pinnacle of strut geometry side by side with what is considered to be the ultimate upgrade, the 991.2 GT3 against the 992 GT3 with double A arm front suspension. It’s not subtle, it shockingly better.

 

[daniel heald]

It wasn't their choice to build a suspension that failed to create the perfect driver's car. They made their best effort and this is what they have accomplished. Their design choices has certain implications on practicality of the car. It's a tough counterfactual to wonder if Lotus should have gone with a front strut design and ended up with a superior handling car.

Nova ,assumptions makes fools of us. Let me make my case, good or bad for myself. I had no counter factual argument or intention. I respect, expect and trust Lotus to make design choices with good intent.

I have no value in one suspension choice over another. The point I wanted to get across is lotus have chosen the superior suspension layout(with luggage compromises) and from the majority of reviews so far, there is a sense of dissappoinment with the first drive of pre-production cars. Porsche have the poorer design suspension, greater luggage capacity and a car that continues to be the benchmark in its class. This the opposite of what I would expect.


May be this will all change when production cars are experienced. May be when more journo's test the touring and Goodyear suspension tire choice will show the Emira in a better light. Certainly Sport and Goodyear has not done well. Tom e (I think)has reported GK sees Sport and Goodyear tire choice as the most compromised on the Emira.

A daily driver needs practicality too.

My DV, v6, Tour/Goodyear is due spring 2023.

 

[Nova]

Nova ,assumptions makes fools of us. Let me make my case, good or bad for myself. I had no counter factual argument or intention. I respect, expect and trust Lotus to make design choices with good intent.

I have no value in one suspension choice over another. The point I wanted to get across is lotus have chosen the superior suspension layout(with luggage compromises) and from the majority of reviews so far, there is a sense of dissappoinment with the first drive of pre-production cars. Porsche have the poorer design suspension, greater luggage capacity and a car that continues to be the benchmark in its class. This the opposite of what I would expect.


May be this will all change when production cars are experienced. May be when more journo's test the touring and Goodyear suspension tire choice will show the Emira in a better light. Certainly Sport and Goodyear has not done well. Tom e (I think)has reported GK sees Sport and Goodyear tire choice as the most compromised on the Emira.

A daily driver needs practicality too.

My DV, v6, Tour/Goodyear is due spring 2023.

I hear what you are saying, but one is that we still don't have a real full comparison between the Emira and the GTS. I am biased towards Lotus with this thinking, of course.

Second is that handling on the track is different from handling on the street.

Third is that even if the Emira is objectively worse than the GTS in every handling measure, on track or the street, a lot more goes into the handling of a car than wish bones vs struts. I don't see it as a given that using wishbones should automagically result in a better handling car. It wasn't a choice for Lotus to hobble the handling of the Emira. They tried their best. It's at least competitive. That's my only point.