Paint bubbling and out of warranty!

[F1 SML8R]

You know what no one has done but would help? Providing a pic of the interior of the removed door to see where water might be collecting and/or just to see the interior design of the door.

I know one or two other members got to see this when they went to their paint shop to check on their cars, but no one has been willing to elaborate on what the shop's theory are (that were shared) as far as root cause and/or pics of the removed (damaged) doors.

If you get to that stage and have the ability, we'd all appreciate anything the shop provides as feedback and/or any pics you can take.

 

[kitkat]

So a quick update. Spoke to Lotus CS stating position re them replacing a faulty door with another faulty door, stated it was a panel issue not paint and mentioned I'm happy to take the matter to the Small Claims Court if needed. They will pass onto Escalations and the warranty team and will get back to me.

Had a quick look at the panels today and saw that the same door has now got worse, temp has gone from 5C to 15c in a matter of days, that is not water its the paint.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but customer support's response is to go ahead and sue them?

 

[Johnson]

My goodness, that top edge is truly terrible.

 

[Nelumbo nucifera]

You know what no one has done but would help? Providing a pic of the interior of the removed door to see where water might be collecting and/or just to see the interior design of the door.

I know one or two other members got to see this when they went to their paint shop to check on their cars, but no one has been willing to elaborate on what the shop's theory are (that were shared) as far as root cause and/or pics of the removed (damaged) doors.

If you get to that stage and have the ability, we'd all appreciate anything the shop provides as feedback and/or any pics you can take.

Greetings. I live in Australia, which is far away from where these paint issues are happening (unless some Kiwis and Aussies are having issues). I have a very cleaver colleague/friend who aside from being an expert engineer also in the past, owned and operated vehicle body repair shops. He works on cars (and boats) with composite materials and uses a base paint that is produced for industrial applications.
If any members can get their hands on discarded panels, doors for example that would normally be dumped in the course of repair, I know he would willingly repair the paintwork using his proven method and the aforementioned paint. Exposed under the hot Aussie sun, plus rain should provide a good test. Believe it or not, the Company making this paint will even guarantee it will withstand being submerged in seawater, hence why he uses it on boats as well as expensive cars eg Ferrari, Lamborghini etc and has done for a number of years with excellent results.
If any member can retain faulty replaced panels I would even be willing to pay shipping costs to get the panels here.
A complete documented record of the process from day one, will be made for free, as an aid to come up with a workable solution.
It sounds like this “paint defect” problem associated with shortened warranty is not going away.

 

[SimonT]

That looks very different from other cars. I wonder if this one is paint/prep related?

Gasses from the panels rising up when the weather gets warmer. The Dealer paintshop was doing 3 cars a week last year, a fully accredited accident repair workshop so I doubt its prep work.

 

[SimonT]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but customer support's response is to go ahead and sue them?

Not yet, just that she would pass all the details upwards. I pointed her to the emails offering a 5yr warranty if I signed an NDA and my refusal on the grounds it was unfair and discriminated against other owners.

Here in the UK its pretty easy to use litigation, a small fee and filed online. I did say to ensure they speak to their law department before refusing the warranty claim. Just waiting now.

 

[SimonT]

Greetings. I live in Australia, which is far away from where these paint issues are happening (unless some Kiwis and Aussies are having issues). I have a very cleaver colleague/friend who aside from being an expert engineer also in the past, owned and operated vehicle body repair shops. He works on cars (and boats) with composite materials and uses a base paint that is produced for industrial applications.
If any members can get their hands on discarded panels, doors for example that would normally be dumped in the course of repair, I know he would willingly repair the paintwork using his proven method and the aforementioned paint. Exposed under the hot Aussie sun, plus rain should provide a good test. Believe it or not, the Company making this paint will even guarantee it will withstand being submerged in seawater, hence why he uses it on boats as well as expensive cars eg Ferrari, Lamborghini etc and has done for a number of years with excellent results.
If any member can retain faulty replaced panels I would even be willing to pay shipping costs to get the panels here.
A complete documented record of the process from day one, will be made for free, as an aid to come up with a workable solution.
It sounds like this “paint defect” problem associated with shortened warranty is not going away.

Unfortunately, Lotus insist that all replaced panels are broken up and dumped, a part of the warranty process. Madness as the number of panels would be in the 0000s.

A similar problem happens in the aero industry that use certain composites, no doubt manufactured by the same company Lotus use, paint flaking and bubbling off.

 

[geoffbland]

Greetings. I live in Australia, which is far away from where these paint issues are happening (unless some Kiwis and Aussies are having issues). I have a very cleaver colleague/friend who aside from being an expert engineer also in the past, owned and operated vehicle body repair shops. He works on cars (and boats) with composite materials and uses a base paint that is produced for industrial applications.

It sounds like your friend is talking about a binder paint here - a coating for the composite uses to ensure a good adhesion for later painting and finishing, sometimes also used to waterproof the panels or make them conductive.
The Teijin panels are already coated with a conductive binder and likely waterproof - it's a proprietary one so its not clear exactly what it is but you can do some web and patent searches to work out what Teijin are likely using. Judging from reports here Teijin have tried two different binders and neither have worked.

 

[Nelumbo nucifera]

Unfortunately, Lotus insist that all replaced panels are broken up and dumped, a part of the warranty process. Madness as the number of panels would be in the 0000s.

A similar problem happens in the aero industry that use certain composites, no doubt manufactured by the same company Lotus use, paint flaking and bubbling off.

Damn! Never mind, I’ll get the details of the paint and how my colleague applies it. Such info may come in useful, I hope, for those faced with this paint problem once out of warranty and told or thinking the only way to repair/fix the problem means having to buy new replacement panels, when in fact, the system I have observed could very well be used on the damaged panel bringing it up to an as new finish. The paint is excellent in that it adheres well to metal and composite materials (including fibreglass, carbon fibre, timber, my clothes and hands) has excellent build qualities, is impermeable from both sides ie positive and negative. Some on our Forum have said that moisture seems to be drawn through the composite panels, perhaps drawn by the heat of the sun to under the factory applied primer/sealer/finished top (gloss) paint. Shame we can’t (presently) get our hands on a defective panel.

 

[Nelumbo nucifera]

You know what no one has done but would help? Providing a pic of the interior of the removed door to see where water might be collecting and/or just to see the interior design of the door.

I know one or two other members got to see this when they went to their paint shop to check on their cars, but no one has been willing to elaborate on what the shop's theory are (that were shared) as far as root cause and/or pics of the removed (damaged) doors.

If you get to that stage and have the ability, we'd all appreciate anything the shop provides as feedback and/or any pics you can take.

I think you might very well be highlighting a solution to the moisture problem, F1 SML8R. If water/moisture is being drawn through the composite panel material, then to stop that happening (despite Teijin‘s efforts) a good impermeable paint coating to the inside of the panel might be a very worthwhile consideration. While the unseen finish makes application easier, unless a new panel is to be used, which can be coated prior to fitting, painting the inside of existing insitu panels would be near impossible, without removing them. Still, if the idea is sound and a proven long term fix, the (out of warranty) labour expended would be considered a pittance to the expense involved with purchasing new panels removing the old (throwing them away) and bolting on the new, which new panels, it would appear have the potential to fail again. I know what I’d be aiming to do.

 

[MiamiBlue]

Gasses from the panels rising up when the weather gets warmer. The Dealer paintshop was doing 3 cars a week last year, a fully accredited accident repair workshop so I doubt its prep work.

The Northern hemisphere (where the majority of Emiras live) is just about to come out of Winter. As things warm up over the next few months we'll see how prevalent this issue becomes. This will be the 1st Summer with a significant number of cars out of warranty.

My doors were replaced about 12 months ago, after bubbling about 18 months into ownership (but the car itself was over 2 years old). So I fortunately have most of the Summer ahead covered under warranty. I'm hoping it's completely fixed with 'good' new doors. But I know it can take years before it shows itself.

 

[Orchardbike]

The ‘painting the back of the door fix’ will, I think, depend on whether the water/gas is trapped in the panel during manufacture or if the water/gas is permeating into, and through the panel during use.

 

[geoffbland]

The ‘painting the back of the door fix’ will, I think, depend on whether the water/gas is trapped in the panel during manufacture or if the water/gas is permeating into, and through the panel during use.

The panels are already painted with a binding agent that I am fairly sure is waterproof. Also note that the issue is occurring in areas that are watertight or where water would not settle - such as the top of the rear quarter panels.

 

[Orchardbike]

So, to the previous post then, rework of the back of the door with anything therefore is a waste of time.

 

[Nelumbo nucifera]

So, to the previous post then, rework of the back of the door with anything therefore is a waste of time.

Mmmmm. Give up in defeat without even trying (and at very little monetary outlay)? That will truly speed up the process of finding a solution!

 

[Orchardbike]

Mmmmm. Give up in defeat without even trying (and at very little monetary outlay)? That will truly speed up the process of finding a solution!

Not sure why you’re now having a go at me? There were definite earlier responses that stated that the panels were already sealed, bubbling was in areas where water couldn’t settle and that it’s air moisture trapped in the panel during manufacture. If that’s true, then doing anything to the back of the door will do nothing. Both things can’t be true. There’s been loads of ‘causes’ stated on this forum and not all can be true and many contradict each other. I’m all for finding out the actual cause, but these posts keeping bouncing back and forth from one cause (not to mention fixes) to another. At some point we need to rule things out to drill down to the actual cause. Then maybe something can be done about it or an easier fix determined. I guess you’d say that you want to try something and see if it works, but my point is/was that your ‘fix’ has already been ruled out by previous posts. Those posts and your ‘fix’ can’t both be true.

 

[geoffbland]

Mmmmm. Give up in defeat without even trying (and at very little monetary outlay)? That will truly speed up the process of finding a solution!

You can give it a go if you can get your hands on a door. I wouldn't do it on your own car as it might be an excuse for Lotus to void your warranty.
I'm just pointing out that the evidence gathered so far and posted on these forums suggests that this will not work.
But go for it, you never know there may be something unknown that means this does work.

 

[Nelumbo nucifera]

You can give it a go if you can get your hands on a door. I wouldn't do it on your own car as it might be an excuse for Lotus to void your warranty.
I'm just pointing out that the evidence

Not sure why you’re now having a go at me? There were definite earlier responses that stated that the panels were already sealed, bubbling was in areas where water couldn’t settle and that it’s air moisture trapped in the panel during manufacture. If that’s true, then doing anything to the back of the door will do nothing. Both things can’t be true. There’s been loads of ‘causes’ stated on this forum and not all can be true and many contradict each other. I’m all for finding out the actual cause, but these posts keeping bouncing back and forth from one cause (not to mention fixes) to another. At some point we need to rule things out to drill down to the actual cause. Then maybe something can be done about it or an easier fix determined. I guess you’d say that you want to try something and see if it works, but my point is/was that your ‘fix’ has already been ruled out by previous posts. Those posts and your ‘fix’ can’t both be true.

gathered so far and posted on these forums suggests that this will not work.
But go for it, you never know there may be something unknown that means this does work.

All good gentlemen. We are on the same R&D page, looking for something, anything that will help identify, save or repair a problem. Rest assured it certainly is not a case of ‘having a go’ at anyone. All comments, opinions are most welcome and helpful, keep them coming.
All I’m aiming to do is have contributors feel free to think ‘outside the square’ even if ideas like those I’m posting may be qwirky, to say the least.
Ironically, I actually am not affected by this dreadful problem, but I certainly are willing to ‘pitch in’ and help to the point of offering to pay freight costs to get any ‘redundant’ panels to Australia, where tests may reveal the real source of the problem and hopefully, a working solution. I’m sure that is the intent of us all.
It’s a shame and loss to the Lotus brand and all car owners, that Teijin are continuing to supply replacements that fail a second, perhaps third time., and Lotus/Teijin put their heads in the sand, destroying rejects that could hold the key to the problem.
Remember the Ford Pinto? How many Lotus owners does it take to launch a worldwide class action against manufacturer/supplier? We would be loath to do that. We admire (for want of a better word) the Lotus brand and want it to continue, not end up on a scrap heap facing insurmountable debt. Is that not true?

 

[freefall_junkie]

All good gentlemen. We are on the same R&D page, looking for something, anything that will help identify, save or repair a problem. Rest assured it certainly is not a case of ‘having a go’ at anyone. All comments, opinions are most welcome and helpful, keep them coming.
All I’m aiming to do is have contributors feel free to think ‘outside the square’ even if ideas like those I’m posting may be qwirky, to say the least.
Ironically, I actually am not affected by this dreadful problem, but I certainly are willing to ‘pitch in’ and help to the point of offering to pay freight costs to get any ‘redundant’ panels to Australia, where tests may reveal the real source of the problem and hopefully, a working solution. I’m sure that is the intent of us all.
It’s a shame and loss to the Lotus brand and all car owners, that Teijin are continuing to supply replacements that fail a second, perhaps third time., and Lotus/Teijin put their heads in the sand, destroying rejects that could hold the key to the problem.
Remember the Ford Pinto? How many Lotus owners does it take to launch a worldwide class action against manufacturer/supplier? We would be loath to do that. We admire (for want of a better word) the Lotus brand and want it to continue, not end up on a scrap heap facing insurmountable debt. Is that not true?

Wow, the Ford Pinto, that is going back some way! But yes I agree, it is amazing how even some major manufacturers seem to carry on in a sate of denial building cars with fundamental flaws. In fact history is repeating itself with a whole generation of Fords with Ecoboost (aka Ecoboom) wet belt engines which are are prone to self destruct at relatively low mileage.

 

[Tony g]

Not yet, just that she would pass all the details upwards. I pointed her to the emails offering a 5yr warranty if I signed an NDA and my refusal on the grounds it was unfair and discriminated against other owners.

Here in the UK its pretty easy to use litigation, a small fee and filed online. I did say to ensure they speak to their law department before refusing the warranty claim. Just waiting now.

Hi, sorry to bother you but wondered if you had any update? Feel my own argument with lotus is also now about to start.
Thanks,
Tony.