Koeni unveils the 1385HP CC850 WITH a manual transmission!

[VL3X]

Koenigsegg just unveiled this insane CC850 hypercar with ~1400HP AND a manual transmission (sort of). It can be driven like an automatic (9 speed), but also has an option to shift into (literally) a 6 speed gated manual with clutch! There are two different gear ratios for road or track that can be selected on the fly.





Check out this video for the shifting demo:

 

[Leonard]

So frickin genius cool

 

[eriegz]

Haha, I was just on my way to see if this had been posted here yet!

I seriously don't get how Koenigsegg does it. That company must work so hard to bring these creations to life. And yet, every time Christian records another walk-through video, showing off their latest and greatest, he's completely calm, relaxed, jovial... It boggles the mind!

But back on the topic, that manual transmission is such a brilliant, breakthrough idea. Talk about a making a real tribute to your company's roots, not like that "New Countach" from Lamborghini last year... Yeah, I know, me talking shit about a 4 million dollar car that I can't even afford... But I can still recognize innovation when I see it, and Lamborghini — my childhood dream car — hasn't been innovating for years now; rather, just sitting back and releasing one cheap special edition body kit after another.

Koenigsegg, however, have been absolutely pushing the technological envelope for years now, and show no signs of slowing down. They're like the Tom Cruise of car companies — they must treat every car like it's the first car they've ever sold.

 

[Lotustoronto]

Haha, I was just on my way to see if this had been posted here yet!

I seriously don't get how Koenigsegg does it. That company must work so hard to bring these creations to life. And yet, every time Christian records another walk-through video, showing off their latest and greatest, he's completely calm, relaxed, jovial... It boggles the mind!

But back on the topic, that manual transmission is such a brilliant, breakthrough idea. Talk about a making a real tribute to your company's roots, not like that "New Countach" from Lamborghini last year... Yeah, I know, me talking shit about a 4 million dollar car that I can't even afford... But I can still recognize innovation when I see it, and Lamborghini — my childhood dream car — hasn't been innovating for years now; rather, just sitting back and releasing one cheap special edition body kit after another.

Koenigsegg, however, have been absolutely pushing the technological envelope for years now, and show no signs of slowing down. They're like the Tom Cruise of car companies — they must treat every car like it's the first car they've ever sold.

I'm still in awe of the interior... the auto/manual, just awesome. And the gauges really look like a old school fighter cockpit. Automotive genius.

 

[Pegasi]

This is my first time hearing about or seeing this car. What the heck!

 

[eriegz]

This is my first time hearing about or seeing this car. What the heck!

Don't fret, it was only unveiled to the whole world about 5 hours ago!

 

[Bertelli]

Will this be raced against an Emira in an upcoming 'supercar shootout'?

 

[Eagle7]

That transmission system is pure genius. To be that capable, at that size and weight seems almost impossible. If something like this can become a standard option for electric cars, that alone dramatically improves the appeal. I wonder what Gordon Murray and his crew think of this lol. Amazing, truly amazing.

 

[Leonard]

Haha, I was just on my way to see if this had been posted here yet!

I seriously don't get how Koenigsegg does it. That company must work so hard to bring these creations to life. And yet, every time Christian records another walk-through video, showing off their latest and greatest, he's completely calm, relaxed, jovial... It boggles the mind!

But back on the topic, that manual transmission is such a brilliant, breakthrough idea. Talk about a making a real tribute to your company's roots, not like that "New Countach" from Lamborghini last year... Yeah, I know, me talking shit about a 4 million dollar car that I can't even afford... But I can still recognize innovation when I see it, and Lamborghini — my childhood dream car — hasn't been innovating for years now; rather, just sitting back and releasing one cheap special edition body kit after another.

Koenigsegg, however, have been absolutely pushing the technological envelope for years now, and show no signs of slowing down. They're like the Tom Cruise of car companies — they must treat every car like it's the first car they've ever sold.

Koenigsegg and Rimac are really inspiring companies to watch.
I'm looking fwd to seeing what Rimac do with Bugatti now as well should be exciting

 

[Lankan]

Amazing - that is absolutely nuts!

Wonder how many patents were filed during the design of that transmission, a world's first. Innovation at its best. Hats off to the team at Koenigsegg who worked on this car.

 

[digilotus]

True innovative engineering like this is so rare these days. Great to see a vision combined with fine technical innovation culminating in what is no doubt a fantastic drivers car.

 

[Nova]

I don't know… am I the only one so far that thinks this manual mode is just a fancy toy, like the complications on a fine watch?

Sure it is neat to look at and it functions, but underneath it all is just an approximation. Its purpose is to exist, not to fulfill some functional requirement. They added a clutch pedal and H-gated selector lever to a 9 speed auto transmission. Great engineering I am sure, but hardly a novel idea. They spent so much time getting the "analog feel" of the transmission but it's mostly artificial. They are simulating the the need to rev match, the resistance of nonexistent synchros, etc. And while you can certainly add a pedal to control the engagement of the clutch pack in an auto transmission, how will the engagement be compared to a traditional manual clutch with a large meshing surface and weighted flywheel?

Anyway, just laying out a counter point here.

 

[MickOpalak]

Ugly.

 

[virtualmacho]

Sure it is neat to look at and it functions, but underneath it all is just an approximation. Its purpose is to exist, not to fulfill some functional requirement.

Kinda feel the same. EVs don't need to mimic an ICE experience: they should have their own unique excitement --- we just haven't figured it out yet. How about current flowing thru the seats

 

[eriegz]

I don't know… am I the only one so far that thinks this manual mode is just a fancy toy, like the complications on a fine watch?

Sure it is neat to look at and it functions, but underneath it all is just an approximation. Its purpose is to exist, not to fulfill some functional requirement. They added a clutch pedal and H-gated selector lever to a 9 speed auto transmission. Great engineering I am sure, but hardly a novel idea. They spent so much time getting the "analog feel" of the transmission but it's mostly artificial. They are simulating the the need to rev match, the resistance of nonexistent synchros, etc. And while you can certainly add a pedal to control the engagement of the clutch pack in an auto transmission, how will the engagement be compared to a traditional manual clutch with a large meshing surface and weighted flywheel?

Anyway, just laying out a counter point here.

I see what you're saying. It's like comparing a regular violin with an electric violin. They're not the same. So, why didn't Koenigsegg just put a regular 6-speed manual transmission into the new CC850?

Here's what I can gather so far from the various videos on this new car:

• The Koenigsegg "Lightspeed Transmission" (LST) used in the CC850 is apparently smaller and lighter than the original 6-speed manual transmission from the original CC8, so there's a weight savings there
• The LST has a higher torque capacity
• The LST has 9 gears (if having more gears is important to you)
• The 6 gears that are available in the gated manual shifter are able to have "different gear ratios" depending on your driving mode. I.e.: essentially, they can pick which of the 9 gears will act as which gears in gated manual driving mode. To explain more, these were Christian's words:
  • "If you're on a racetrack — let's say driving out of the pits and not using the first gear very much — then 3rd gear in the 9-speed gearbox is close to a traditional long 1st gear of an old school hypercar. That's good enough for racetrack driving: you get out of the pits on a long 1st gear, then you have a tight box afterwards, through the next 5 slots.
    
    But then in normal mode, you don't want THAT long of a 1st gear, so instead of using 3rd, we're using 2nd as the first gear, which is about the same ratio as the CC8's 6-speed gearbox."
• The CC850 is capable of operating in both "real" manual mode (meaning you can actually stall the car if you dump the clutch too harshly) and also automatic mode (if having that flexibility is important to you), for no added weight penalty (so you essentially get all of that "for free")

Also for what it's worth, there's apparently "no software intervention" between your foot movement and the clutch pressure; the software simply tells the clutches to do whatever your foot just did, i.e.: there's no "software feel" put into the clutch pedal, it's just mechanical, and the software measures what you did and activates the clutches accordingly.

And for whatever else it's worth, here's this guy driving the new CC850 for 30 centimetres then stating that "It's just like a manual" and that "if you didn't know, you wouldn't know".

 

[Eagle7]

I don't know… am I the only one so far that thinks this manual mode is just a fancy toy, like the complications on a fine watch?

Sure it is neat to look at and it functions, but underneath it all is just an approximation. Its purpose is to exist, not to fulfill some functional requirement. They added a clutch pedal and H-gated selector lever to a 9 speed auto transmission. Great engineering I am sure, but hardly a novel idea. They spent so much time getting the "analog feel" of the transmission but it's mostly artificial. They are simulating the the need to rev match, the resistance of nonexistent synchros, etc. And while you can certainly add a pedal to control the engagement of the clutch pack in an auto transmission, how will the engagement be compared to a traditional manual clutch with a large meshing surface and weighted flywheel?

Anyway, just laying out a counter point here.

Lol yeah but that's precisely the point! Sports cars are fancy toys, designed strictly for the fun of driving. If this were just a simulated manual trans you'd have a point to some degree, but it gives you both manual trans style control and auto if you so choose. Manufacturers no longer have to decide whether to develop a manual or just an automatic for their sports cars. Look how many people were/are upset that the C8 doesn't have a manual. With this trans, you can have it all in every car, and they can all use the same trans! This is a manufacturer's dream; a one-style fits all trans. Not only that, but it's lighter than either a manual or an automatic! I'm telling you, this is truly game-changing break-through stuff. This could be an important factor in the specialty ICE market which is going to be around for some time, even after we're all supposedly going to have to switch to EV.

 

[eriegz]

This is a manufacturer's dream; a one-style fits all trans.

And just think — because the hardware for both transmission types would be included by default in every car, automakers can now charge a monthly subscription fee to enable the manual transmission, rev matching, etc.! I know @Leonard would be all over that.

 

[Lankan]

I was really fascinated and curious, so had to dig a bit deeper into the technology behind this gearbox, and managed to locate the patent filed by Koenigsegg (published on 28th April 2022). The excerpts below are a few of paragraphs from that patent application.

Paragraphs 0002, 0005 and 0014 describe the problem/use case (in bold) they are looking to solve/address [US Patent Application (#20220128127) for MULTI-SHAFT GEARBOX]

"[0002] Dual-clutch transmission (DCT) is a well-established technology implemented both in conventional passenger cars and in high-performance cars. In DCTs two clutches are arranged concentrically. Typically, a larger outer clutch drives the even-designated gear sets and a smaller inner clutch drives the odd-designated gear sets. It is possible to shifts gears without interrupting torque delivery to the drive wheels. This is achieved by engaging one of the clutches at the same time as the other clutch is disengaged. However, this seamless torque transfer is possible only in a shift from an odd gear to an even gear and vice versa. For example, short-shifting from the first to third gear or from the second to fourth gear is not possible.

[0004] In high-performance cars, the engine is typically tuned for maximum torque in a narrow interval of engine speeds. To maximize acceleration, the engine speed is typically held near the point where maximum torque is developed. For example, a high-performance engine can develop maximum torque at 8500 revolutions per minute (rpm) and the engine speed is held within the operating interval 6500 to 8500 rpm during acceleration. To utilize the torque efficiently, a close-ratio type of gearbox is used to allow the engine to remain in the relatively narrow operating interval.

[0005] It is desirable to be able to drive a high-performance car having a close-ratio type of gearbox as a conventional passenger car with less but seamless gear shifting. However, this is not possible using a close ratio DCT, since short-shifting is not possible with this technology.

[0014] The proposed gearbox allows for a smooth gear shifting with perceived seamless torque transfer, similar to that of a Dual-Clutch Transmission (DCT). Additionally, the proposed gearbox can short-shift, or skip a gear when shifting up or down, without losing torque transfer, which is not possible for DCT-technologies. For example, if there are three gear assemblies in the first set, the gear assembly having the highest gear ratio can be disengaged simultaneously to the gear assembly having the lowest gear ratio being engaged, effectively skipping the second gear, fifth gear, etc. depending on which gear assembly of the second set that is engaged. The ability to short-shift is particularly important if the gearbox is a close-ratio type of transmission, since it allows for a less-frequent shift of gears at lower speeds. The racing oriented close-ratio type transmission can then be operated as the more common transmission for passenger cars with greater changes in gear ratio percentagewise between neighboring lower gears than between neighboring higher gears.

[0015] In comparison with a classic manual-transmission, the wet clutch of each gear assembly replaces the selector, dog clutch, and synchronizer rings of a meshed gear wheel pair. Synchronizer rings are subjected to wear and it is contemplated that the removal of these components contributes to a longer lifetime of the gearbox."

Further, in the aforementioned video, Christian stated that the gearbox has a longer first gear, so one does not have to shift when driving through the pits, which is evident in the following diagram. I am guessing, given that you are likely to be in track mode, all 9 gears are used. When in manual mode, 1st is effectively 2nd or 3rd, depending on the chosen drive mode.

So, essentially, this gearbox appears to address all drawbacks found in present day gearboxes; manual (loss of torque when shifting gear plus wear & tear), auto (too much slippage) and DCT (inability to short-shift). Using sets of clutches (clutch packs) offer a smooth, efficient, fast-shifting, box that is small, has a low weight, no flywheel required (so low rotational mass), plus it is also expected to have a longer lifespan than any gearbox in use today.

Fascinating stuff!

 

[Dragoon]

That transmission is genius!

 

[eriegz]

I was really fascinated and curious, so had to dig a bit deeper into the technology behind this gearbox, and managed to locate the patent filed by Koenigsegg (published on 28th April 2022). The excerpts below are a few of paragraphs from that patent application.

Paragraphs 0002, 0005 and 0014 describe the problem/use case (in bold) they are looking to solve/address [US Patent Application (#20220128127) for MULTI-SHAFT GEARBOX]

"[0002] Dual-clutch transmission (DCT) is a well-established technology implemented both in conventional passenger cars and in high-performance cars. In DCTs two clutches are arranged concentrically. Typically, a larger outer clutch drives the even-designated gear sets and a smaller inner clutch drives the odd-designated gear sets. It is possible to shifts gears without interrupting torque delivery to the drive wheels. This is achieved by engaging one of the clutches at the same time as the other clutch is disengaged. However, this seamless torque transfer is possible only in a shift from an odd gear to an even gear and vice versa. For example, short-shifting from the first to third gear or from the second to fourth gear is not possible.

[0004] In high-performance cars, the engine is typically tuned for maximum torque in a narrow interval of engine speeds. To maximize acceleration, the engine speed is typically held near the point where maximum torque is developed. For example, a high-performance engine can develop maximum torque at 8500 revolutions per minute (rpm) and the engine speed is held within the operating interval 6500 to 8500 rpm during acceleration. To utilize the torque efficiently, a close-ratio type of gearbox is used to allow the engine to remain in the relatively narrow operating interval.

[0005] It is desirable to be able to drive a high-performance car having a close-ratio type of gearbox as a conventional passenger car with less but seamless gear shifting. However, this is not possible using a close ratio DCT, since short-shifting is not possible with this technology.

[0014] The proposed gearbox allows for a smooth gear shifting with perceived seamless torque transfer, similar to that of a Dual-Clutch Transmission (DCT). Additionally, the proposed gearbox can short-shift, or skip a gear when shifting up or down, without losing torque transfer, which is not possible for DCT-technologies. For example, if there are three gear assemblies in the first set, the gear assembly having the highest gear ratio can be disengaged simultaneously to the gear assembly having the lowest gear ratio being engaged, effectively skipping the second gear, fifth gear, etc. depending on which gear assembly of the second set that is engaged. The ability to short-shift is particularly important if the gearbox is a close-ratio type of transmission, since it allows for a less-frequent shift of gears at lower speeds. The racing oriented close-ratio type transmission can then be operated as the more common transmission for passenger cars with greater changes in gear ratio percentagewise between neighboring lower gears than between neighboring higher gears.

[0015] In comparison with a classic manual-transmission, the wet clutch of each gear assembly replaces the selector, dog clutch, and synchronizer rings of a meshed gear wheel pair. Synchronizer rings are subjected to wear and it is contemplated that the removal of these components contributes to a longer lifetime of the gearbox."

Further, in the aforementioned video, Christian stated that the gearbox has a longer first gear, so one does not have to shift when driving through the pits, which is evident in the following diagram. I am guessing, given that you are likely to be in track mode, all 9 gears are used. When in manual mode, 1st is effectively 2nd or 3rd, depending on the chosen drive mode.

View attachment 8198

So, essentially, this gearbox appears to address all drawbacks found in present day gearboxes; manual (loss of torque when shifting gear plus wear & tear), auto (too much slippage) and DCT (inability to short-shift). Using sets of clutches (clutch packs) offer a smooth, efficient, fast-shifting, box that is small, has a low weight, no flywheel required (so low rotational mass), plus it is also expected to have a longer lifespan than any gearbox in use today.

Fascinating stuff!

Good on you for looking up the actual patent!

The only small thing I wanted to add is: I believe Christian was saying that track mode just changes which gears become your "designated 1st gear" and "designated 2nd gear" when you have your shifter set to manual shifting mode. I think that you can still have the car in "track mode" and push your shifter all the way to the bottom-right to switch it into automatic mode, and by doing so regain access to all 9 gears (but why would you, except to maybe burn out of the pits, which would probably be frowned upon anyways. Haha).

I think that chart was just showing RPMs vs. speed (in km/h) while shifting through all 9 gears in automatic mode. If it was showing manual shifting mode then I think there'd only be 6 "peaks" shown on the graph, and the first 2 or 3 peaks would be much longer (because you'd be starting the car from a standstill in "designated 1st gear", which under the hood would actually be the transmission's 2nd or 3rd gear, depending on what driving mode you're in). Although I do see that the transmission's "actual 1st gear" is still a longer gear, compared to the others.

Also, one of the things I love most about this company is that they are absolute perfectionists, and yet somehow they still manage to get things done. I want to learn how to do that 2nd part better.