I'm out - the cancellations thread

[boisecrawfords]

Maybe some people don't realize that in the U.S. you don't buy from the manufacturer, you buy from the dealer. When you place an order with a dealer, they have to commit to that by ordering it from the manufacturer. The manufacturer then commits to ordering all the pieces necessary to build your car, and paying for everything (including labor) right up to and including shipping it to the dealer. They don't get paid by the dealer until they deliver the car to them. Once that happens, the dealer has to pay the manufacturer, and now has to collect the full amount from you, because they've already paid for the car.

The dealer can't just cancel your order because you want them to. They're on the hook for the car you ordered. If you don't pay for whatever reason, now they have to try and find a buyer. If you ordered a car with unusual options, or an unusual color combo, it may be very difficult for them to sell it, which is why they have the contracts about non-refundable deposits on a special order. If they can sell the car reasonably quickly, they usually won't come after you because lawsuits also cost money. Keeping the deposit after you bailed on them is considered good enough to cover their expenses to sell your car. However if they have difficulty selling the car you ordered, they have every legal right to come after you for the money. Read contracts carefully before you sign, and keep a paper trail of communications (which is what the GM was doing at Park Place when he said he would only communicate via email in this one case).

They also don't want to start trying to cancel orders they already placed with the manufacturer, because the manufacturer may just stop taking orders from them, and now they can't get any cars to sell. Cancellations cost the manufacturer too.

In the case of a dealer having to notify you of a delay in estimated delivery due to delays from the manufacturer, that's not the dealer's fault or anything they did or have control over, so taking them to court is just going to be a waste of time and money. Unless there was a stipulation in the contract that the car had to be delivered by a specific time, there's no grounds for a legal action. It would have to be something dealer-specific to have a basis for taking them to court. In this case, with a car model that hasn't even been produced and certified for the U.S. yet, it's even more unlikely you'd have a case.

Lotus advised me directly that I could cancel and that I just needed to talk to Park Place. Park Place said no.

Chatted with an attorney but will cost about $10k to do anything, other than just send a letter, which he said I'm sure isn't the first time they've done this to someone so they will just ignore it. At this point just going to wait a year, get the car, then sell it. Have lost a solid five figures in the market over the past two weeks so may be better that they have the money.

 

[Rupes]

Maybe some people don't realize that in the U.S. you don't buy from the manufacturer, you buy from the dealer. When you place an order with a dealer, they have to commit to that by ordering it from the manufacturer. The manufacturer then commits to ordering all the pieces necessary to build your car, and paying for everything (including labor) right up to and including shipping it to the dealer. They don't get paid by the dealer until they deliver the car to them. Once that happens, the dealer has to pay the manufacturer, and now has to collect the full amount from you, because they've already paid for the car.

The dealer can't just cancel your order because you want them to. They're on the hook for the car you ordered. If you don't pay for whatever reason, now they have to try and find a buyer. If you ordered a car with unusual options, or an unusual color combo, it may be very difficult for them to sell it, which is why they have the contracts about non-refundable deposits on a special order. If they can sell the car reasonably quickly, they usually won't come after you because lawsuits also cost money. Keeping the deposit after you bailed on them is considered good enough to cover their expenses to sell your car. However if they have difficulty selling the car you ordered, they have every legal right to come after you for the money. Read contracts carefully before you sign, and keep a paper trail of communications (which is what the GM was doing at Park Place when he said he would only communicate via email in this one case).

They also don't want to start trying to cancel orders they already placed with the manufacturer, because the manufacturer may just stop taking orders from them, and now they can't get any cars to sell. Cancellations cost the manufacturer too.

In the case of a dealer having to notify you of a delay in estimated delivery due to delays from the manufacturer, that's not the dealer's fault or anything they did or have control over, so taking them to court is just going to be a waste of time and money. Unless there was a stipulation in the contract that the car had to be delivered by a specific time, there's no grounds for a legal action. It would have to be something dealer-specific to have a basis for taking them to court. In this case, with a car model that hasn't even been produced and certified for the U.S. yet, it's even more unlikely you'd have a case.

All good points - for a real car. The one in question happens to be vaporware though.

 

[benjh1028]

Maybe some people don't realize that in the U.S. you don't buy from the manufacturer, you buy from the dealer. When you place an order with a dealer, they have to commit to that by ordering it from the manufacturer. The manufacturer then commits to ordering all the pieces necessary to build your car, and paying for everything (including labor) right up to and including shipping it to the dealer. They don't get paid by the dealer until they deliver the car to them. Once that happens, the dealer has to pay the manufacturer, and now has to collect the full amount from you, because they've already paid for the car.

The dealer can't just cancel your order because you want them to. They're on the hook for the car you ordered. If you don't pay for whatever reason, now they have to try and find a buyer. If you ordered a car with unusual options, or an unusual color combo, it may be very difficult for them to sell it, which is why they have the contracts about non-refundable deposits on a special order. If they can sell the car reasonably quickly, they usually won't come after you because lawsuits also cost money. Keeping the deposit after you bailed on them is considered good enough to cover their expenses to sell your car. However if they have difficulty selling the car you ordered, they have every legal right to come after you for the money. Read contracts carefully before you sign, and keep a paper trail of communications (which is what the GM was doing at Park Place when he said he would only communicate via email in this one case).

They also don't want to start trying to cancel orders they already placed with the manufacturer, because the manufacturer may just stop taking orders from them, and now they can't get any cars to sell. Cancellations cost the manufacturer too.

In the case of a dealer having to notify you of a delay in estimated delivery due to delays from the manufacturer, that's not the dealer's fault or anything they did or have control over, so taking them to court is just going to be a waste of time and money. Unless there was a stipulation in the contract that the car had to be delivered by a specific time, there's no grounds for a legal action. It would have to be something dealer-specific to have a basis for taking them to court. In this case, with a car model that hasn't even been produced and certified for the U.S. yet, it's even more unlikely you'd have a case.

I totally disagree here. If I’m told I better wire my money now if I want a car by Spring and then a week later it’s pushed out a year I call that a breach of contract. Verbal commitments matter in a court of law. Intent matters in a court of law. The law does apply reasonableness in deciding these matters. And it was reasonable for the buyer to expect his car within a reasonable time from when promised. I would argue a year (and likely longer) is NOT reasonable. Further, to be rushed to wire money in order to secure said production spot? I promise you these facts matter.

And with regards to the dealer model. Yes, they are at the mercy of the manufacturers. That’s the risk they assumed in being in this business and accepting deposits. Are we to expect that they should operate in a way no other business does in not having potential risk or downside? If I make a calculated gamble at work we lose money. It’s part of doing business.

And lastly, why do they have to be such dicks about this? Worried “if” they have to take delivery as a lot vehicle they can’t sell it? Shows a lot of faith in their product.

 

[Eagle7]

Lotus advised me directly that I could cancel and that I just needed to talk to Park Place. Park Place said no.

Chatted with an attorney but will cost about $10k to do anything, other than just send a letter, which he said I'm sure isn't the first time they've done this to someone so they will just ignore it. At this point just going to wait a year, get the car, then sell it. Have lost a solid five figures in the market over the past two weeks so may be better that they have the money.

Well that's interesting. Lotus seems to be getting things done faster recently, so maybe i4's will start showing up later this year.

I hear ya about the stock market. I just liquidated some questionable holdings that were just speculation investments. I took a loss but that'll help lower my tax obligation for the other sales I made money on. Right now I just want my car. I'd rather be in it and driving it than looking at stock reports anyways.

 

[Eagle7]

I totally disagree here. If I’m told I better wire my money now if I want a car by Spring and then a week later it’s pushed out a year I call that a breach of contract. Verbal commitments matter in a court of law. Intent matters in a court of law. The law does apply reasonableness in deciding these matters. And it was reasonable for the buyer to expect his car within a reasonable time from when promised. I would argue a year (and likely longer) is NOT reasonable. Further, to be rushed to wire money in order to secure said production spot? I promise you these facts matter.

And with regards to the dealer model. Yes, they are at the mercy of the manufacturers. That’s the risk they assumed in being in this business and accepting deposits. Are we to expect that they should operate in a way no other business does in not having potential risk or downside? If I make a calculated gamble at work we lose money. It’s part of doing business.

And lastly, why do they have to be such dicks about this? Worried “if” they have to take delivery as a lot vehicle they can’t sell it? Shows a lot of faith in their product.

A lot depends on the circumstances, and whether or not the dealer was relaying the information in good faith they were receiving from the manufacturer. If this was a model already in production and being sold here, that would be a different story. We all know Lotus hasn't produced the i4 for the North American market yet. That makes it more likely that the dealer was operating on good faith from what they were being told by Lotus. In situations like this, the court tends to rely even more on what's in writing.

When you order a car that isn't in production and hasn't even been certified to be sold in the U.S. yet, that's the 'risk' you take when you put down your money. There may be delays (usually are) for reasons that have nothing to do with the dealer.

Park Place has been in business a long time. Business practices and policies are usually the result of experience. They've been a Lotus dealer a long time too. We've already seen what it's like doing business with Lotus; they haven't exactly covered themselves with glory in the communication and support department, and that also affects the dealers. I'm not saying this is a good situation, but if you sign a contract, it's on you to know what you're signing.

Park Place got an allocation of I believe 80 cars, and those were all customer orders. That's an $8,000,000 commitment from Park Place, with no real idea when they'd actually get the cars and be able to sell them. Meanwhile they have to keep the lights on and the doors open the whole time while not receiving a dime from Lotus sales yet.

It's been an unusual journey and situation all the way around, but the light at the end of the tunnel has begun to emerge and fortunately it wasn't an oncoming train; it's the headlights of Emiras being delivered.

 

[Fasttoys]

Maybe some people don't realize that in the U.S. you don't buy from the manufacturer, you buy from the dealer. When you place an order with a dealer, they have to commit to that by ordering it from the manufacturer. The manufacturer then commits to ordering all the pieces necessary to build your car, and paying for everything (including labor) right up to and including shipping it to the dealer. They don't get paid by the dealer until they deliver the car to them. Once that happens, the dealer has to pay the manufacturer, and now has to collect the full amount from you, because they've already paid for the car.

The dealer can't just cancel your order because you want them to. They're on the hook for the car you ordered. If you don't pay for whatever reason, now they have to try and find a buyer. If you ordered a car with unusual options, or an unusual color combo, it may be very difficult for them to sell it, which is why they have the contracts about non-refundable deposits on a special order. If they can sell the car reasonably quickly, they usually won't come after you because lawsuits also cost money. Keeping the deposit after you bailed on them is considered good enough to cover their expenses to sell your car. However if they have difficulty selling the car you ordered, they have every legal right to come after you for the money. Read contracts carefully before you sign, and keep a paper trail of communications (which is what the GM was doing at Park Place when he said he would only communicate via email in this one case).

They also don't want to start trying to cancel orders they already placed with the manufacturer, because the manufacturer may just stop taking orders from them, and now they can't get any cars to sell. Cancellations cost the manufacturer too.

In the case of a dealer having to notify you of a delay in estimated delivery due to delays from the manufacturer, that's not the dealer's fault or anything they did or have control over, so taking them to court is just going to be a waste of time and money. Unless there was a stipulation in the contract that the car had to be delivered by a specific time, there's no grounds for a legal action. It would have to be something dealer-specific to have a basis for taking them to court. In this case, with a car model that hasn't even been produced and certified for the U.S. yet, it's even more unlikely you'd have a case.

At this point of his deposit, I don't think the dealer has any active build allocations from Lotus for a car that is not being produced yet. I deal with this all the time as any dealer I have worked with in the past It is when an active allocation against that deposit is key, meaning the dealer is on the hook for building that car. Once that happens no refund on the deposit. Either way, I would not sign a document and give my money to ANY DEALER if it's not spelled out. Even on my Lotus Emira, I made the dealer send me documentation. My Z06 deposit of 3k was being held by the largest Corvette dealer for 3.5 years and last month I got it back in full as I have other options to get the build I want ASAP. When it comes to money you can never be too careful in the end it will be a learning experience.

 

[benjh1028]

Well that's interesting. Lotus seems to be getting things done faster recently, so maybe i4's will start showing up later this year.

I hear ya about the stock market. I just liquidated some questionable holdings that were just speculation investments. I took a loss but that'll help lower my tax obligation for the other sales I made money on. Right now I just want my car. I'd rather be in it and driving it than looking at stock reports anyways.

Eagle you still don’t have your car? Seems like there is a handful of you guys that have been waiting forever. Hope you hear something soon (and not the Lotus definition of soon).

 

[Eagle7]

Eagle you still don’t have your car? Seems like there is a handful of you guys that have been waiting forever. Hope you hear something soon (and not the Lotus definition of soon).

Yeah, those of us who ordered the earliest and thought we were first in line, are winding up to be the ones getting our cars last. The only consolation is we get our cars $11k cheaper, which isn't a bad consolation.

My car is on it's way to Park Place, should be there by Monday. I've already been called by my sales guy, and sent some paperwork he needed. I'm having it delivered to me by covered carrier, so I'm guessing I'll get it sometime in the first week of May. After all this time, and everything we've gone through in this forum, it's going to be a very surreal moment when the delivery carrier pulls up in front of my house. It will be the first time I'll actually see an Emira, and it will be mine!

 

[Fasttoys]

Yeah, those of us who ordered the earliest and thought we were first in line, are winding up to be the ones getting our cars last. The only consolation is we get our cars $11k cheaper, which isn't a bad consolation.

My car is on it's way to Park Place, should be there by Monday. I've already been called by my sales guy, and sent some paperwork he needed. I'm having it delivered to me by covered carrier, so I'm guessing I'll get it sometime in the first week of May. After all this time, and everything we've gone through in this forum, it's going to be a very surreal moment when the delivery carrier pulls up in front of my house. It will be the first time I'll actually see an Emira, and it will be mine!

IM me the carrier you are using please Congrats on your car.

 

[Eagle7]

IM me the carrier you are using please Congrats on your car.

I don't know the carrier yet. I asked my sales guy what service they use, and if the price is reasonable I'll go with them, otherwise I'll find one on my own. I'll let you know either way.

 

[denk0815]

I'm out for now.
After I finally had the chance to test drive an i4 a few months ago, I realized that the V6 was the more suitable engine (for me).

Unfortunately, my dealer couldn't find one for me and I couldn't find one online either. But as summer is just around the corner and I really wanted a new toy, I opted for a used 2014 R8 with a V8.
Funnily enough, it wasn't an option beforehand, but after a test drive, I realized that it had everything I was looking for.

Here is the good piece:

 

[Rupes]

I'm out for now.
After I finally had the chance to test drive an i4 a few months ago, I realized that the V6 was the more suitable engine (for me).

Unfortunately, my dealer couldn't find one for me and I couldn't find one online either. But as summer is just around the corner and I really wanted a new toy, I opted for a used 2014 R8 with a V8.
Funnily enough, it wasn't an option beforehand, but after a test drive, I realized that it had everything I was looking for.

Here is the good piece:

Nice car! I had an RS4 with essentially the same engine. Fun car, made a great noise, and everything worked and felt "tight" after 15+ years. Reliable too, I hope the same is true for yours.

 

[Fasttoys]

I'm out for now.
After I finally had the chance to test drive an i4 a few months ago, I realized that the V6 was the more suitable engine (for me).

Unfortunately, my dealer couldn't find one for me and I couldn't find one online either. But as summer is just around the corner and I really wanted a new toy, I opted for a used 2014 R8 with a V8.
Funnily enough, it wasn't an option beforehand, but after a test drive, I realized that it had everything I was looking for.

Here is the good piece:

Sold my manual V8 R8 years ago, that car will be missed. The technology in the car is very dated like the infotainment system even in 2014. Great car enjoy in the USA they hold their value. I was looking for a 2018 rear wheel drive V10 but prices are too high so I opted for a New 2024 Z06. Completely different vehicle but high rev which I wanted.

 

[denk0815]

Sold my manual V8 R8 years ago, that car will be missed. The technology in the car is very dated like the infotainment system even in 2014. Great car enjoy in the USA they hold their value. I was looking for a 2018 rear wheel drive V10 but prices are too high so I opted for a New 2024 Z06. Completely different vehicle but high rev which I wanted.

Stability of value was also one of the reasons why the R8 was chosen. My thought was that I could drive it for 1.5-2 years for under 1k/month and then, if an interesting variant of the Emira pops up, the change wouldn't be a big hurdle.
Yes, the infotainment is really the Achilles heel, but to be honest it's also kind of fun to pull your music onto the two SD cards in advance. I could probably manage completely without infotainment.
The sound of the V8, especially in sport mode at over seven thousand revs, is simply out of this world.

Even after 10 years, the car still feels razor-sharp. I'm currently considering replacing the magnetic ride system and installing a different exhaust manifold, but that's a topic for the winter. The average costs per month would then probably be 50% higher. And I have no hope of recouping that when I sell.

For now, I'm going to enjoy the car.

 

[Fasttoys]

Stability of value was also one of the reasons why the R8 was chosen. My thought was that I could drive it for 1.5-2 years for under 1k/month and then, if an interesting variant of the Emira pops up, the change wouldn't be a big hurdle.
Yes, the infotainment is really the Achilles heel, but to be honest it's also kind of fun to pull your music onto the two SD cards in advance. I could probably manage completely without infotainment.
The sound of the V8, especially in sport mode at over seven thousand revs, is simply out of this world.

Even after 10 years, the car still feels razor-sharp. I'm currently considering replacing the magnetic ride system and installing a different exhaust manifold, but that's a topic for the winter. The average costs per month would then probably be 50% higher. And I have no hope of recouping that when I sell.

For now, I'm going to enjoy the car.

I did a complete Kine exhaust on mine, with many videos. The issue was how the OEM vacuum computer for the actuators would work based off RPM. It was tricky, as it closed at certain RPM’s during cruising to keep it from drone, which was good. This exhaust was very calm inside and nice F1 tone outside. Anyway in the end it was a fun project and we sold many of those exhaust. Have fun.

 

[Fasttoys]

Stability of value was also one of the reasons why the R8 was chosen. My thought was that I could drive it for 1.5-2 years for under 1k/month and then, if an interesting variant of the Emira pops up, the change wouldn't be a big hurdle.
Yes, the infotainment is really the Achilles heel, but to be honest it's also kind of fun to pull your music onto the two SD cards in advance. I could probably manage completely without infotainment.
The sound of the V8, especially in sport mode at over seven thousand revs, is simply out of this world.

Even after 10 years, the car still feels razor-sharp. I'm currently considering replacing the magnetic ride system and installing a different exhaust manifold, but that's a topic for the winter. The average costs per month would then probably be 50% higher. And I have no hope of recouping that when I sell.

For now, I'm going to enjoy the car.

Here is the Exhaust in a V10 R8, make sure you are wearing your Depends sound on my V8 was amazing but this is off the hook, sounds like an older F1 car with a v10

 

[denk0815]

Here is the Exhaust in a V10 R8, make sure you are wearing your Depends sound on my V8 was amazing but this is off the hook, sounds like the older F1 v10

Thank you very much, will give it a look!

 

[Foxy87]

Stability of value was also one of the reasons why the R8 was chosen. My thought was that I could drive it for 1.5-2 years for under 1k/month and then, if an interesting variant of the Emira pops up, the change wouldn't be a big hurdle.
Yes, the infotainment is really the Achilles heel, but to be honest it's also kind of fun to pull your music onto the two SD cards in advance. I could probably manage completely without infotainment.
The sound of the V8, especially in sport mode at over seven thousand revs, is simply out of this world.

Even after 10 years, the car still feels razor-sharp. I'm currently considering replacing the magnetic ride system and installing a different exhaust manifold, but that's a topic for the winter. The average costs per month would then probably be 50% higher. And I have no hope of recouping that when I sell.

For now, I'm going to enjoy the car.

Why would your monthly cost increase by lowering the car and change the exhaust?

 

[denk0815]

Why would your monthly cost increase by lowering the car and change the exhaust?

Because I break down the costs for both into my holding period.

 

[Emira604]

Didn't expect that I would be posting in this thread, but all the waiting has allowed me enough time to reconsider my choice. I originally went with an I4 because I needed an automatic so my wife could also use the car, and I preferred a dual clutch over a torque converter auto. First red flag for me was when pricing was officially announced here in Canada; the I4 is only CAD$3k less than the V6 manual which didn't make sense to me based on pricing in other markets.
Then I started looking at other competitors and realized a well spec'ed Porsche Cayman GTS 4.0 w/ PDK is equal or less money than the Emira I4 FE. My original intention was to keep the Emira long term but all the quality issues that folks are discussing here have me doubting that plan. All things considered, in conjunction with the ever changing delivery times, I ended up cancelling my order yesterday. I still love the car, will continue to lurk on this forum, and will likely reconsider when base model pricing is released and quality has improved.