Chinese vs European i4 HP?

[Andrew]

A little off-topic, but:
So the Chinese version of i4 will have 400HP and the European i4 versions 360HP?
Is that confirmed?

(If so, I'd better start thinking about how to import a new car from China)

 

[Jonhklee]

A little off-topic, but:
So the Chinese version of i4 will have 400HP and the European i4 versions 360HP?
Is that confirmed?

(If so, I'd better start thinking about how to import a new car from China)

Or just find someone to port the ECU map across to a local car….

 

[simonb]

chinese car converts to £100K

 

[Singularity]

A little off-topic, but:
So the Chinese version of i4 will have 400HP and the European i4 versions 360HP?
Is that confirmed?

(If so, I'd better start thinking about how to import a new car from China)

I was curious about this too. There was a flurry of info last year but then the topic went quiet.

From some web searching and processing pages through the translator I can’t definitively tell from the Chinese Lotus website - I couldn’t find (or missed) any references to power. My latest conclusion was that the Chinese version is also 360 but I might have that wrong.

I’m not avidly chasing any early power upgrade, and totally I get the need to have some power space between the i4 and V6 at launch, but if the Chinese i4 is 400 then it would definitely confirm the physical engine configuration (cooling and gas flow) would easily support a future remap. 🤞

 

[Jonhklee]

Lotus marketing team can just quote 360bhp, and leave it stock 400bhp for the i4…..

The journo reviews will be raving!

 

[Nova]

From some web searching and processing pages through the translator I can’t definitively tell from the Chinese Lotus website - I couldn’t find (or missed) any references to power.

From the Lotus Chinese website: https://www.lotuscars.com.cn/emira-not-just-another-sportscar-the-other-sportscar

发动机功率输出为400马力

This says the engine power output is 400 HP.

 

[Andrew]

yeah, that '400' at the end is pretty clear for me also : )
I saw a similar photo last year

 

[christophermalex]

Moderator note: moved from new thread into this existing thread on this topic

I’m sure this may be covered somewhere else in the Forum but I just can’t find it. Does anyone know what Lotus has done to the i4 for the Chinese market that makes them comfortable releasing it with 400hp? I get that they don’t want to shoot the V6 lovers in the foot by releasing dueling 400hp cars in all other markets but if it is JUST a matter of tuning then there should really be a rush to the i4 which must blow the doors off the V6 once tuned up to the same power output. We are already hearing that it likely beats the V6 on track even at 360hp.

Is it possible more than a tune is needed to get to 400hp? Are they adding some cooling for the engine? Does anyone know recommended tuners or service for Lotus (not dealers) in the US (preferably Southern California) that I can run to the second my i4 gets delivered to sort this out?

 

[kitkat]

None of your questions have definitive answers right now, just lots of guesses.

My Guesses:
- All that is needed is an OEM tune for 400hp
- No extra cooling is needed
- Unknown status for ECU tuning from Lotus ECUs if they're open, encrypted, or crackable.
- Unknown who even provides the ECUs and programming, is it Lotus or AMG.
- If it is locked down you may never see an aftermarket ecu tune and all that may be available would be a piggyback. The speed for cracking or bench unlocking ECUs is purely a function of demand and this is a low volume car.

 

[Aero]

Are we sure Lotus is just not 'rounding up' from 360 to 400 for the Chinese market and for marketing reasons. Thats a big jump/round but a lot of car makers do it for marketing reasons.
I wonder if you dyno various (diff market versions) I4s off the line they are identical.

 

[Pegasi]

Are we sure Lotus is just not 'rounding up' from 360 to 400 for the Chinese market and for marketing reasons. Thats a big jump/round but a lot of car makers do it for marketing reasons.
I wonder if you dyno various (diff market versions) I4s off the line they are identical.

For me I am waiting to see a 400HP Emira dyno'd compared to a 360HP Emira dyno'd. Not sure how it will happen but that's what I would like to see. How the power and torque is delivered for each car.

 

[Tokion]

Nobody should loose their sleep by having nightmares about struggling to get their i4 up to the hypothetical Chinese 400hp level. May happen, or it may not. kitkat’s comments above are 100% correct.

I have the experience doing a similar ECU tuning of my BMW 335i (E93) N54 twin-turbo engine from 306hp to 360hp (with an option for a second step on the same tune to 400hp - but I realized 360 was the sweet spot, and worked well for the car and the engine. The tune installation was done using a Windows laptop connected to the OBD port. The car’s downloaded original file was sent as e-mail attachment from Japan to the tuner in California, and the new tune also came in return via e-mail attachment, and finally the new tune was installed via the laptop and OBD port. BINGO! It all worked really well. But this is a case where nothing was encrypted or locked. It is also with noting that my car continues to pass regular, obligatory emissions inspections with the tune in place. (This was also guaranteed by the tuner). Select your tuner very carefully, and only go with the most trusted place, and do not choose solely on highest power‼️

Regarding the “quick and powerful enough” phrase; I think Rolls Royce always got this right by never focusing on the actual power figure, but rather saying that the power of their cars is “sufficient”. Of course these are not sports cars with a need to “brag” ;-)

I am also in line for an i4, and the 360hp does not bother me the least. It will give sufficient and comfortable power for the EMIRA.

However, if the opportunity arrives later to do an ECU tune up to what the M139 is already doing (standard) in the A45S (up to ca. 420hp), I may consider it. However I am not eager (or desperate) to do “piggybacks”.

 

[TomE]

None of your questions have definitive answers right now, just lots of guesses.

My Guesses:
- All that is needed is an OEM tune for 400hp
- No extra cooling is needed
- Unknown status for ECU tuning from Lotus ECUs if they're open, encrypted, or crackable.
- Unknown who even provides the ECUs and programming, is it Lotus or AMG.
- If it is locked down you may never see an aftermarket ecu tune and all that may be available would be a piggyback. The speed for cracking or bench unlocking ECUs is purely a function of demand and this is a low volume car.

My info is the ECU is from AMG and is encrypted, with the programming done by AMG. They have had staff on site at Hethel.

But we know other aftermarket tuners have been able to crack and tune the M139 in other applications. Litchfield have got an early i4 on order, so they must reckon they can do something...

 

[kitkat]

My info is the ECU is from AMG and is encrypted, with the programming done by AMG. They have had staff on site at Hethel.

But we know other aftermarket tuners have been able to crack and tune the M139 in other applications. Litchfield have got an early i4 on order, so they must reckon they can do something...

That’s good information — hope they can do something — more options for everyone.

 

[M3DOC]

Nobody should loose their sleep by having nightmares about struggling to get their i4 up to the hypothetical Chinese 400hp level. May happen, or it may not. kitkat’s comments above are 100% correct.

I have the experience doing a similar ECU tuning of my BMW 335i (E93) N54 twin-turbo engine from 306hp to 360hp (with an option for a second step on the same tune to 400hp - but I realized 360 was the sweet spot, and worked well for the car and the engine. The tune installation was done using a Windows laptop connected to the OBD port. The car’s downloaded original file was sent as e-mail attachment from Japan to the tuner in California, and the new tune also came in return via e-mail attachment, and finally the new tune was installed via the laptop and OBD port. BINGO! It all worked really well. But this is a case where nothing was encrypted or locked. It is also with noting that my car continues to pass regular, obligatory emissions inspections with the tune in place. (This was also guaranteed by the tuner). Select your tuner very carefully, and only go with the most trusted place, and do not choose solely on highest power‼️

Regarding the “quick and powerful enough” phrase; I think Rolls Royce always got this right by never focusing on the actual power figure, but rather saying that the power of their cars is “sufficient”. Of course these are not sports cars with a need to “brag” ;-)

I am also in line for an i4, and the 360hp does not bother me the least. It will give sufficient and comfortable power for the EMIRA.

However, if the opportunity arrives later to do an ECU tune up to what the M139 is already doing (standard) in the A45S (up to ca. 420hp), I may consider it. However I am not eager (or desperate) to do “piggybacks”.

There is no doubt that the I4 AMG engine is capable of more power, however getting that power comes at a price. There's no free lunch. My guess is that a more robust intercooler would have to be installed at the very least. I'm not sure how or where that would fit with the current design. As previously mentioned there will have to be a large demand for someone to program a flash (provided you can crack the AMG ECU) to get the full potential out of this engine. However, if it is doable look out! This car could turn into a hooligan. Only time will tell if there is enough demand. Right now I'm just delighted to be actually owning one by Spring '24.

 

[Nova]

There is no doubt that the I4 AMG engine is capable of more power, however getting that power comes at a price. There's no free lunch. My guess is that a more robust intercooler would have to be installed at the very least. I'm not sure how or where that would fit with the current design. As previously mentioned there will have to be a large demand for someone to program a flash (provided you can crack the AMG ECU) to get the full potential out of this engine. However, if it is doable look out! This car could turn into a hooligan. Only time will tell if there is enough demand. Right now I'm just delighted to be actually owning one by Spring '24.

The M139 has an integrated water-air intercooler. I am not sure if there are different part numbers for different tunings of the M139, but it's part of the overall packaging of the M139 so no significant additional space is needed. The water side of the intercooler does need to be hooked up to a water cooling system and radiator, which is likely mounted at the front of the Emira where there is more space to play with.

 

[Jdmc21]

Seems like a mild tune, bringing it up to 420 or so, which is what MB ships it with in the A45S, wouldn't require more cooling.

 

[M3DOC]

Seems like a mild tune, bringing it up to 420 or so, which is what MB ships it with in the A45S, wouldn't require more cooling.

Everything I've read about the Emira's use of the AMG power plant indicates that because of the mid engine configuration vs. Mercedes's front engine mounting complicates the amount of cooling needed to replicate the Merc's power. Other factors besides cooling also come into play. I'm not sure if the Emira will use a similar down pipe. Once again the location of the engine may limit what can be tweaked.

 

[Pegasi]

@Tokion @TomE Any plans for a review of the 400HP Emira? Is it being planned by any automotive journalists?

 

[ADC]

Everything I've read about the Emira's use of the AMG power plant indicates that because of the mid engine configuration vs. Mercedes's front engine mounting complicates the amount of cooling needed to replicate the Merc's power. Other factors besides cooling also come into play. I'm not sure if the Emira will use a similar down pipe. Once again the location of the engine may limit what can be tweaked.

This cooling thing keeps coming up, but where you are "reading" such stuff is just an echo chamber of people repeating speculation on forums like this. I will buy a hat and then eat it if it is not simply a case of removing the Market Segmentation Valve to get more out of the i4 in the Emira.

Behold, as the wizards at Lotus release a 430+hp variant in a couple of years (once the V6 run is finished), with no hardware changes... witchcraft, I say!