Horsepower Discussion Continues - Detuning for Emissions

[Pegasi]

I know this has been discussed extensively but the argument has been that no car manufacturer would have less power on a new model. In reading up about the new 2024 Mustang GT launch I learned that the 2022 Mustang was detuned compared to the 2021 and had less horsepower. TomE always comments on these debates and says emissions is the reason and that appears to really be true. It's not something I really understand but there may be a real reason Lotus cut the HP.

Also, not mentioned in this article but I watched in another video that Ford will commit to the S650 new platform NA engine until 2032. That's the longest date I have seen for a NA engine. California has said no more ICE cars after 2035. I really don't think anyone knows what will happen.


Here is the Ford article:

Why Will the 2022 Ford Mustang Have Less Horsepower?

We have more info on the 2022 Mustang, as well as the new 2023, which should soon be making its debut. And what about the info that for 2022 the Mustang loses 10 horsepower?

www.motorbiscuit.com

 

[Lotustoronto]

That is interesting... I personally think they held it back for a GT edition v6 Emira. However, emissions could have played a role. Not common to see this happening... the end of ICE is truly coming faster than I would think.

 

[silent cilantro]

I also feel it was detuned (less power, lower redline) to stick with regulations. The GT/Final/Whatever they call it Edition, I think, will be the I4.

 

[VL3X]

But won't these potential future Emira editions have to abide by the same emissions laws? Or possibly even more strict laws? Why would a future version be allowed to have more power and higher redline, but the FE isn't? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[silent cilantro]

Because the 2GR-FE engine is much older, less efficient, less clean than Mercedes' M139. They can get more power out of the latter while remaining under emission caps.

PS: Not knocking the V6, that is what I ordered.

 

[VL3X]

Because the 2GR-FE engine is much older, less efficient, less clean than Mercedes' M139. They can get more power out of the latter while remaining under emission caps.

PS: Not knocking the V6, that is what I ordered.

Oh, so we're thinking the V6 will only be available for these initial FE Emiras and the first year or two of base model production? Everything else after will be i4 AMG automatics?

 

[silent cilantro]

Yeah, I think the V6 car had its days numbered even before it was put in production. Emira itself is meant to be short lived if they plan to stick with going all electric by late 2020s.

I think base models with V6s and I4s will be sold for about 2 years, then they'll drop the V6 and maybe add power to the i4? Lastly a Final/GT/Something Edition based on that i4 before they end production and go full electric with Type 135

From conversations I had with people at the factory, Emira was designed with the I4 in mind. I think they decided to put the V6 in for the first few years because it would be easy (they've been doing it with Exige and Evora) and would appeal to purists so they can sell cars while they refine the i4 version.

But yeah, they just can't get any more power out of the V6 if they want to keep it legal. They'll focus on doing that with the i4 since it's a lot easier. Merceds already gets a lot more out of the same engine and it meets regulations.

 

[Lotustoronto]

I believe emission's get penalized as a percentage of what the company builds... so when the i4's come out it brings down the percentage of c02 and if the electric Eletre comes in will drastically bring down the emissions for the company as a whole.

With that I can still see a gt/s/final v6.

 

[nahanni]

Yeah, I think the V6 car had its days numbered even before it was put in production. Emira itself is meant to be short lived if they plan to stick with going all electric by late 2020s.

I think base models with V6s and I4s will be sold for about 2 years, then they'll drop the V6 and maybe add power to the i4? Lastly a Final/GT/Something Edition based on that i4 before they end production and go full electric with Type 135

From conversations I had with people at the factory, Emira was designed with the I4 in mind. I think they decided to put the V6 in for the first few years because it would be easy (they've been doing it with Exige and Evora) and would appeal to purists so they can sell cars while they refine the i4 version.

But yeah, they just can't get any more power out of the V6 if they want to keep it legal. They'll focus on doing that with the i4 since it's a lot easier. Merceds already gets a lot more out of the same engine and it meets regulations.

However, lots of disadvantages heading down the EV path. As time unfolds we will become quite aware of the downsides.

 

[Pegasi]

I believe emission's get penalized as a percentage of what the company builds... so when the i4's come out it brings down the percentage of c02 and if the electric Eletre comes in will drastically bring down the emissions for the company as a whole.

With that I can still see a gt/s/final v6.

This was my understanding too but couldn't figure out why Ford had to detune. I am thinking they should have enough eco vehicles to not have to shave off 10 HP.

 

[TomE]

I believe emission's get penalized as a percentage of what the company builds... so when the i4's come out it brings down the percentage of c02 and if the electric Eletre comes in will drastically bring down the emissions for the company as a whole.

With that I can still see a gt/s/final v6.

Particularly if the higher powered V6 is only built in limited numbers.

 

[Matt]

Don't forget that the FE also has I4 version. I am so curious why i4 FE in China has 400HP. It is clearly written on the website of LOTUS .

 

[RapidLotus]

Don't forget that the FE also has I4 version. I am so curious why i4 FE in China has 400HP. It is clearly written on the website of LOTUS .

Maybe it is 400 china HP? What is the ratio of China HP to US HP?

 

[Pegasi]

Here is the video I spoke of.

This is just a random youtuber though not a Ford rep. The reason I posted it is because of the one glaring fact that we may be missing. Lotus isn't an engine maker. The video talks about Ford engineers resolving the HP emissions issue and I wonder if Lotus has the budget, time, expertise to accomplish. And as many have said, the V6 was just an accommodation for the manual enthusiasts, it's not the future of the Emira.

1:25 thru 2:25 he speaks about HP and emissions, it's not technical, just informative.

 

[teamvxracing]

Given all the legal problems in the car industry recently with emissions and software defeat devices , it makes sense to de-tune.

 

[RapidLotus]

Although Lotus sources their engines from Toyota, and now MB, I am pretty sure they do their own ECU mapping on Lotus procured ECUs. Can anyone confirm my thoughts? If that is the case then Lotus could tweak ECUs for each market. That might explain the 400 hp I4 for China.

 

[Porter]

However, lots of disadvantages heading down the EV path. As time unfolds we will become quite aware of the downsides.

Energy density of batteries is one problem that's been pointed out ad-nauseum because of the weight and size penalties for electric cars, but the biggest fundamental barrier that nobody seems to be talking enough about is the actual level of electrical grid capacity that exists today (and is planned over the next 10-15y) compared to the daily transportation energy consumption that would be needed to switch even 50% of passenger transportation to electric-only.

The current national grid capacity in most countries simply wouldn't support anything like that... hell, in many places around the world the local grid has a hard time supporting existing loads at certain times of year when weather is extremely hot or cold, and raising the base load with millions of daily-charging vehicles will exacerbate those crunch times. That's true even in very developed countries that should (assumptively) have a bunch of extra grid capacity because of their generally greater economic resources.

But as a catch-22, the profit motive has kept excess capacity constrained because it's expensive to build, so we don't have the kind of overbuild that would be appropriate for any future that is more broadly electrified and significantly less fossil-fuel consumptive (homes, auto, and industry). And honestly I think we never will see that necessary overbuild ahead of the demand curve without really significant overhauls to our regulatory apparatus for this stuff in a bunch of different countries. The incentives are not yet aligned appropriately to make those large infrastructure investments a complete no-brainer, so the grid operators have been sitting on their hands waiting for governments to act. And I don't mean by requiring more electric cars to be sold, I mean at a macro infrastructure investment level that directly produces excess (and temporarily unprofitable) capacity.