I'm out - the cancellations thread

idleuser · Feb 23, 2023

I think more people will ultimately drop out because of higher interest rates. There is a high chance the feds will raise another .50bps or .25bps for the next 2 months. This will bring car loans to 6.25-10% territory, this is absolutely the worst timing for Lotus to be slow on ramping up productions. I'm 50/50 at this time. I may put down a deposit and buy a G87 M2 or a GR Supra and pick up the Emira later in 2026.

Concept24 · Feb 23, 2023

Wake said:
Definitely a step up in cost from the Emira, but I wouldn’t have thought the cost of ownership for a Macca would be that different from a Gallardo.

The thing that put me off about the GT4 or Porsche products in general was/is just that they are a bit common. Even the “special ones” there will be at least 5 at any enthusiast meeting. Very shallow of me, but if I’m spending, what is quite a lot of money for me, then I want to feel it’s at least a little “exclusive”.

I don’t think the Macca will be a long term car for me. Likely just to tick the box and then reevaluate in a couple of years time. We shall see

I agree. Porsche cars are very common in Southern California. Besides, more than one comparison reviewers have stated that when you compare any Porsche with an Evora, for example, the Porsche cars feel numb and more disconnected from the driving sensation. I agree, as I have driven both a 911 and an Evora.

DaaS · Feb 23, 2023

Found a nice looking Cayman parked next to me today. Off-topic… I know.

lion shf · Feb 23, 2023

Concept24 said:
I agree. Porsche cars are very common in Southern California. Besides, more than one comparison reviewers have stated that when you compare any Porsche with an Evora, for example, the Porsche cars feel numb and more disconnected from the driving sensation. I agree, as I have driven both a 911 and an Evora.

Have we gone too far calling Porsches numb? Yes, we have.

kitkat · Feb 23, 2023

lion shf said:
Have we gone too far calling Porsches numb? Yes, we have.

This opinion is wild to me.

Less feel than an Evora? Somewhat.
Numb in the greater picture of sports cars? Not a damn chance.

Pegasi · Feb 23, 2023

Porter said:
I think this is the key, honestly. A lack of comms from Lotus over the entire deposited waiting period is the thing that has made these delay and pricing communications so intolerable for people. If Lotus had been communicating and engaging with their customer base over time like a responsible modern brand, the tenor of reaction from people would probably be different because it wouldn't be the only contact they had received in two years.

As it is, the ONLY news has been bad news. The rest is silence and assumptions. It's Lotus UK's own stubbornly silent fault that people feel this way. It could all have been so much more understandable and excusable, if only they had had the humility to regularly update and engage with their most important stakeholders: their customers.

Communication by definition means something substantive is being transmitted. Until Lotus can reach some X percent of manufacturing capacity I don't think comms will change. Not judging whether or not what they are doing is good or bad. Its very difficult to develop a communication plan when your input information is constantly changing. Add that to the challenge of Lotus having to scale up it's previous operation and then I think you get a vacuum. Yes, some of the issues they are having are "teething problems" as stated my M. Windle. I just don't compare them to Porsche or Mercedes or whoever. They just aren't at that scale. They can get better but I am not sure who to benchmark against. To me the JayEmm video hit the nail on the head. Porsche is a consistent customer experience, Lotus isn't and never will be but when you get behind the wheel...

What tradeoffs can you live with? is my rhetorical question.

Cachaco131 · Feb 23, 2023

lion shf said:
Have we gone too far calling Porsches numb? Yes, we have.

Steering of a 992 is kind of numb. I was disappointed. Obviously the whole package is compelling.

mjw930 · Feb 23, 2023

Since the thread exists I’ll register my cancellation, in case anyone’s counting. Hopefully it moves someone closer to getting theirs.
The reservation was placed with Naples.

Hell4Leather · Feb 23, 2023

tmardon said:
I'm thinking about cancelling too and also looked at the McClarens on pistonheads. I have heard they are very expensive to maintain with main dealers but there are some independents you can use for servicing now. I think I'll probably go for a Cayman Gt4 as want more of a track car and I have had good experiences with other Porsches for reliability/running costs.......unlike the Italian cars I have owned (355, Gallardo) which had a remarkable ability to generate bills from even routine items....

Everyone says “they hear they are expensive to maintain “ but if you don’t track it and destroy it it has about $1,500. USD annual running costs.

Hell4Leather · Feb 23, 2023

lion shf said:
Have we gone too far calling Porsches numb? Yes, we have.

I think he meant the Porsche drivers..

lion shf · Feb 23, 2023

kitkat said:
This opinion is wild to me.

Less feel than an Evora? Somewhat.
Numb in the greater picture of sports cars? Not a damn chance.

its As if the only car that can equal the Emira s dynamics is a 200k used super car. I’ll argue a 718T Boxster with a JB4 will be it’s equal at $70k us certified

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/1b02dbe5-9e4f-414e-a62d-5c922c31f50e/

lion shf · Feb 23, 2023

Cachaco131 said:
Steering of a 992 is kind of numb. I was disappointed. Obviously the whole package is compelling.

I can’t afford the 992, I’d be comparing a 2019 rear steering T. But I think the real p car comparo is vs the 718s, Porsches most dynamic car

Porter · Feb 23, 2023

Pegasi said:
Communication by definition means something substantive is being transmitted. Until Lotus can reach some X percent of manufacturing capacity I don't think comms will change. Not judging whether or not what they are doing is good or bad. Its very difficult to develop a communication plan when your input information is constantly changing. Add that to the challenge of Lotus having to scale up it's previous operation and then I think you get a vacuum. Yes, some of the issues they are having are "teething problems" as stated my M. Windle. I just don't compare them to Porsche or Mercedes or whoever. They just aren't at that scale. They can get better but I am not sure who to benchmark against. To me the JayEmm video hit the nail on the head. Porsche is a consistent customer experience, Lotus isn't and never will be but when you get behind the wheel...

What tradeoffs can you live with? is my rhetorical question.

It wasn't even a need for substantive info that created the gap, it's the fact that they weren't engaging at all. If Lotus had been doing minimum monthly "look at what we're working on" or "meet this particular team/employee" emails or social posts throughout the last 2 years people would have eaten it up.

Or even just a "we know you're waiting, thanks for being our customer, we are working hard for you" email once a quarter would have been a super welcome gesture. And I bet if that had happened, we'd have seen barely half of the cancellations that have occurred.

Lotus management just totally fucked up this part of brand management, in what amounts to a spectacular own goal. It's stupid.

TurboTambo · Feb 23, 2023

Looks like I might be another cancellation. Ongoing delays and the recent price increase (even though Matt Windle said deposit placers wouldn't be seeing any price increases) has really turned me off. I'm going to be test driving a V6 Emira tomorrow, but unless it's simply amazing, I'll be sending the cancellation email.

JasonR · Feb 24, 2023

lion shf said:
Have we gone too far calling Porsches numb? Yes, we have.

Most German cars are numb in comparison to their competition in almost all instances I’ve encountered. I think it’s a fair description

action_turtle · Feb 24, 2023

Porter said:
It wasn't even a need for substantive info that created the gap, it's the fact that they weren't engaging at all. If Lotus had been doing minimum monthly "look at what we're working on" or "meet this particular team/employee" emails or social posts throughout the last 2 years people would have eaten it up.

Or even just a "we know you're waiting, thanks for being our customer, we are working hard for you" email once a quarter would have been a super welcome gesture. And I bet if that had happened, we'd have seen barely half of the cancellations that have occurred.

Lotus management just totally fucked up this part of brand management, in what amounts to a spectacular own goal. It's stupid.

It doesn't seem like they have had that many cancellations. We are not getting loads of people in here talking about reduced wait times as they have been moved up. The i4 version maybe, as that is so far away, lots of people are probably just thinking, 'whats the point in waiting', which is fair, as 2024 onwards is insane when you put money down 2 years ago!

How many V6's have been cancelled from the thousands on order? 5%, less? Feels like we have all just swallowed the 6K increase if we get the car in the next few months.

lion shf · Feb 24, 2023

JasonR said:
Most German cars are numb in comparison to their competition in almost all instances I’ve encountered. I think it’s a fair description

Price of said cars?

Porter · Feb 24, 2023

action_turtle said:
It doesn't seem like they have had that many cancellations. We are not getting loads of people in here talking about reduced wait times as they have been moved up. The i4 version maybe, as that is so far away, lots of people are probably just thinking, 'whats the point in waiting', which is fair, as 2024 onwards is insane when you put money down 2 years ago!

How many V6's have been cancelled from the thousands on order? 5%, less? Feels like we have all just swallowed the 6K increase if we get the car in the next few months.

I'm not saying anything about volume. I was simply pointing out the damage that Lotus has done to their brand, and recognizing that some of the sentiment here might not exist in the way that it does if not for that damage.

It's not like the people who have cancelled did so because they aren't interested in the product. Placing a deposit at all was a vote of confidence in the product and the brand. They cancelled because of the way they perceived their treatment at the hands of a company that SHOULD be prioritizing their customers' experience. Very few of those who have cancelled will return, and they WILL tell other people who might have become Lotus customers all about their negative experience.

action_turtle · Feb 24, 2023

Porter said:
I'm not saying anything about volume. I was simply pointing out the damage that Lotus has done to their brand, and recognizing that some of the sentiment here might not exist in the way that it does if not for that damage.

It's not like the people who have cancelled did so because they aren't interested in the product. Placing a deposit at all was a vote of confidence in the product and the brand. They cancelled because of the way they perceived their treatment at the hands of a company that SHOULD be prioritizing their customers' experience. Very few of those who have cancelled will return, and they WILL tell other people who might have become Lotus customers all about their negative experience.

Sure, i'd agree that they have damaged the brand's integrity. People seem to be turning a blind eye to it, though. "Cost of living crisis" etc etc. I would have expected the increase to have news stories on it. Type "Emira price increase" into google and you only get forum talk. They absolutely should be handling this differently. I guess even with the increase, the majority of people still want the car. I think it sets the stage for the i4 to get a price bump again in 2024 though.

Cachaco131 · Feb 24, 2023

Porter said:
I'm not saying anything about volume. I was simply pointing out the damage that Lotus has done to their brand, and recognizing that some of the sentiment here might not exist in the way that it does if not for that damage.

It's not like the people who have cancelled did so because they aren't interested in the product. Placing a deposit at all was a vote of confidence in the product and the brand. They cancelled because of the way they perceived their treatment at the hands of a company that SHOULD be prioritizing their customers' experience. Very few of those who have cancelled will return, and they WILL tell other people who might have become Lotus customers all about their negative experience.

Damage to the brand? The baseline for the brand was never high. I don't think there was much downside so...if anything, the brand has not benefitted from the latest products and management.